Stockley verdict coming down.

[chipbennett]

Unmarked cop car backs through protesters in St. Louis; Police accused of ‘pulling a Charlottesville’

Nothingburgers are yummy:

[video=youtube;YFEcXWK3LPs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFEcXWK3LPs[/video]

At around 7 p.m., officers pulled over a vehicle occupied by two wanted suspects on 20th at Locust. The driver was wanted for an Assault 1st and the passenger was wanted for Making a Terrorist Threat. Three firearms were recovered from the vehicle. While officers were making the arrest, a third suspect threw rocks at arresting officers. The third suspect was taken into custody and detained in the back of the blue Impala which is an unmarked police vehicle. The crowd started moving in a threatening manner towards the Impala and because of road closures, the car could not go forward. The officer driving the blue Impala backed down the street to safety. No injuries have been reported to the department at this time.

So, the crowd tried to interfere with legitimate police activity that had absolutely nothing to do with the "protests", and the police officer, having no other alternative, drove in reverse to get where he needed to go.

"Parallels to Charlottesville", Twitchy?

 

[bwframe]

Of course there is no such thing as defending the nazi that killed the woman in Charlottesville, but were the "protesters" there that were hit blocking a roadway?

 

[1DOWN4UP]

I still wonder if Anthony Smith did not do what he was accused of,why the Obama/Holder Justice Dept. not bring this case out front and center back then? They sure would not have passed up the chance if there were any question about his innocence.

 

[Vigilant]

Don't surround a police car and you won't get run over. Pretty simple concept.

Ill bump that up a notch by saying don't surround ANY car, and you won't get run over! I purposely drive high protester clearance vehicles for a reason!

 

[Kutnupe14]

Not guilty=FREE **** FOR EVERYONE! But it's ok as long as they have a legitimate beef!

Insurance will cover it.

Still waiting for your answer, Kut.

So that makes it ok?

You're asking me if it ok if insurance covers the losses from looting in St Louis, due to this current fiasco? I imagine that of all the types of coverages that insurance companies are happily willing to pay, they would be totally ok with payouts for looting din St Louis, directly related to the last few days of protest.

Kut (wants you to look at what is being said, and you'll understand why he said what he said)

 

[phylodog]

I haven't weighed in on this one yet but I will now. This case stinks. I don't like the manner in which this officer behaved in this incident, at all. I don't like that he was carrying an AK pistol and I don't like that he went digging for something in the back seat before returning to the vehicle. I smell a rat.

Funny thing is, I've smelled plenty of rats over the years who walked. I think the prosecutor in this case dropped the ball in a major way. I think 1st degree murder was a foolish charge to purse at best.

I also think that 99% of the protestors are complete and total idiots with zero grasp of reality. Had the roles been reversed and this case been about a cop killer who walked it would have simply been a reason to celebrate. This is nothing more than a reason to act like asses because they enjoy it, they have zero legitimate beliefs that their behavior will result in any significant change.

The entire situation is a **** sandwich, egged on by a media who wishes nothing more than to stir up controversy. There are no winners here. Nothing will change. Its a waste of time and effort. It does give people something to be outraged over though, doesn't it?

 

[Kutnupe14]

I haven't weighed in on this one yet but I will now. This case stinks. I don't like the manner in which this officer behaved in this incident, at all. I don't like that he was carrying an AK pistol and I don't like that he went digging for something in the back seat before returning to the vehicle. I smell a rat.

Funny thing is, I've smelled plenty of rats over the years who walked. I think the prosecutor in this case dropped the ball in a major way. I think 1st degree murder was a foolish charge to purse at best.

I also think that 99% of the protestors are complete and total idiots with zero grasp of reality. Had the roles been reversed and this case been about a cop killer who walked it would have simply been a reason to celebrate. This is nothing more than a reason to act like asses because they enjoy it, they have zero legitimate beliefs that their behavior will result in any significant change.

The entire situation is a **** sandwich, egged on by a media who wishes nothing more than to stir up controversy. There are no winners here. Nothing will change. Its a waste of time and effort. It does give people something to be outraged over though, doesn't it?

I agree, but like I said earlier, of all the people to protest over, this guy (like Michael Brown) ain't the one waste your energy on. That's the biggest fault with the movement. This guy ain't Philando Castile.

 

[KittySlayer]

Unmarked cop car backs through protesters in St. Louis; Police accused of ‘pulling a Charlottesville’

The group is not as stupid as I thought. They saw a car coming down the street and got out of the way. The Darwin Award will have to be presented to someone else.

 

[phylodog]

I agree, but like I said earlier, of all the people to protest over, this guy (like Michael Brown) ain't the one waste your energy on. That's the biggest fault with the movement. This guy ain't Philando Castile.

Philando Castile should serve as an example of what has not worked over the past 20 years. Those who have cried wolf, fully supported by the media, have made villains out of law enforcement, thereby reducing the number of qualified applicants willing to have their life turned to **** for trying to do a good job. We've now ended up with a largely unqualified group of applicants from which we must choose as someone must fill the positions. The officer in the Castile case should not have made it through the hiring/training process. I don't believe he was a bad person, I simply do not believe he was capable of performing the job as is expected by society.

At some point people will realize that you reap what you sow. At some point people will realize who their friends are and who they aren't. At some point people will realize that there are consequences to their actions. The only question is how much pain will it take for those realizations to manifest. The sad thing is that the answers are simple.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

You're asking me if it ok if insurance covers the losses from looting in St Louis, due to this current fiasco? I imagine that of all the types of coverages that insurance companies are happily willing to pay, they would be totally ok with payouts for looting din St Louis, directly related to the last few days of protest.

Kut (wants you to look at what is being said, and you'll understand why he said what he said)

No, I'm asking you if it is ok for property to be vandalized and looted by "protesters" because insurance will pay to recoup losses. You have made the inference that it is ok in a past thread about the subject.

 

[bwframe]

Weekend of disruption takes economic toll on St. Louis | Business | stltoday.com

...“Even if a business has insurance, they may have a $5,000 deductible, and that’s a substantial amount for a small business,” Bueler said. “The costs are going to be astronomical,” she said of the damages to the area...

...The longer-term effect on the region — one that was convulsed just three years ago by Ferguson protests — is unclear.
...Does the unrest make the seemingly quixotic bid to land Amazon’s second headquarters seem ridiculous now? Will the Washington Avenue entertainment district, which has had to wrestle with the perception that crime is on the rise, face an even bigger challenge in the wake of the vandalism that took place Sunday night? Will out-of-town parents who send their kids to Washington University think twice about housing near the Delmar Loop?

For some hotels, restaurants and retailers, paying for plywood and replacement windows is only the beginning. Some businesses have trimmed operating hours before and after protests, resulting in lost revenue and fewer hours for employees.

Three Kings Pub, a Delmar Loop restaurant that had its front window smashed by vandals late Saturday while diners were inside, warned on Twitter it would close its University City location at 5 p.m. Monday — six hours early — due to another planned protest in the Delmar Loop...

...The cancellation of two concerts over the weekend — U2 was supposed to play Saturday at the Dome at America’s Center and Ed Sheeran was booked for Scottrade Center on Sunday — will have an impact beyond the immediate loss of people who would have spent hours downtown, she said. Especially for such a huge name like U2, people traveling from around the Midwest to downtown St. Louis turned around this weekend.

“They didn’t go to restaurants, didn’t go to hotels,” Kelley said. “That’s the short-term impact. Longer term, it’s a hit to our brand. It makes people think twice about coming.”

Downtown hoteliers and restaurateurs were banking on the U2 and Sheeran concerts to be big revenue generators.

“We were on track for a sellout on Saturday,” said Steve O’Loughlin, president and CEO of Maryland Heights-based Lodging Hospitality Management. When the concerts were scrubbed, guests canceled 300 rooms at LHM’s Hilton St. Louis at the Ballpark Hotel, which has 675 rooms. At LHM’s St. Louis Union Station Hotel, 150 guests canceled out of 539 rooms. Additionally, revenue at LHM’s 360 Rooftop Bar atop the Hilton was down 50 percent.

“With U2, that would’ve been a huge night,” O’Loughlin said of the impact.

 

[Kutnupe14]

No, I'm asking you if it is ok for property to be vandalized and looted by "protesters" because insurance will pay to recoup losses. You have made the inference that it is ok in a past thread about the subject.

Oh, I see what you're saying. Heck, I don't care if insurance covers the losses or not. Yes, I completely believe that in certain circumstances vandalizing and looting are completely valid forms of protest.
NOTE: I said in certain circumstances, meaning NOT ALL circumstances. That's not directed towards you FNS, but someone would undoubtedly trying to frame it as if I meant in all cases regardless of the circumstances.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Oh, I see what you're saying. Heck, I don't care if insurance covers the losses or not. Yes, I completely believe that in certain circumstances vandalizing and looting are completely valid forms of protest.
NOTE: I said in certain circumstances, meaning NOT ALL circumstances. That's not directed towards you FNS, but someone would undoubtedly trying to frame it as if I meant in all cases regardless of the circumstances.

So what would be circumstances where you approve of vandalism and looting? I'm having a hard time coming up with a scenario where I believe either would be justified.

 

[Kutnupe14]

So what would be circumstances where you approve of vandalism and looting? I'm having a hard time coming up with a scenario where I believe either would be justified.

You can't up with a single scenario, where it debatable if vandalism or looting is justified, based on displeasure with a govt? I can think of multiples, outside of war zones (which obviously both looting/vandalism are acceptable).

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

You can't up with a single scenario, where it debatable if vandalism or looting is justified, based on displeasure with a govt? I can think of multiples, outside of war zones (which obviously both looting/vandalism are acceptable).

No, I really can't.

 

[Kutnupe14]

No, I really can't.

Ok, what is your opinion of the Boston Tea Party? Or all of the shenanigans surrounding the Stamp Act.

 

[T.Lex]

So I talked to a friend of mine who took a job in St. Louis last year. They shared several stories to me of overt or nearly-overt racist treatment that were, frankly, shocking. This person is a professional, who I've known for years to not be a race-baiting type person. I believe 100% that the person experienced what they described, partly because I've seen how they act in situations that arguably had a racial component, and they dealt with it in a very balanced way.

These personal anecdotes made me re-assess the context for what's happening in St. Louis, the South generally, and even our nation. I think there's a good chance I've been in a bubble on this topic. Yeah, sure, I knew there were racist hill jacks out there in places like Alabama and Georgia, but they were the fringe. The Deep South. MOST Americans, the VAST MAJORITY of Americans didn't care about race in any meaningful way.

That now seems pollyanna-ish. I still think most American's do not care about race. But, that percentage is closer to 51% than 90%. I thought of Missouri as part of the midwest, but based on these anecdotes, it seems like it is more South. The kind of institutionalized racism in day-to-day interactions continues.

I'm still not sure what to do about it. And looting is not the answer.

But, the mass protests have a larger, more legitimate context for me.

 

[chipbennett]

Ok, what is your opinion of the Boston Tea Party? Or all of the shenanigans surrounding the Stamp Act.

The Boston Tea Party was not an example of looting. The participants didn't abscond with the tea; they dumped it in the harbor. It wasn't vandalism, either, because goods were destroyed, not (real) property.

If I may take the liberty of re-framing FNS's question, in a way that makes it more specific to the events being discussed (since both of your examples involved actions against the State, and not against private persons): what would be circumstances where you approve of vandalism and looting of private property and goods?

 

[chipbennett]

So I talked to a friend of mine who took a job in St. Louis last year. They shared several stories to me of overt or nearly-overt racist treatment that were, frankly, shocking. This person is a professional, who I've known for years to not be a race-baiting type person. I believe 100% that the person experienced what they described, partly because I've seen how they act in situations that arguably had a racial component, and they dealt with it in a very balanced way.

These personal anecdotes made me re-assess the context for what's happening in St. Louis, the South generally, and even our nation. I think there's a good chance I've been in a bubble on this topic. Yeah, sure, I knew there were racist hill jacks out there in places like Alabama and Georgia, but they were the fringe. The Deep South. MOST Americans, the VAST MAJORITY of Americans didn't care about race in any meaningful way.

That now seems pollyanna-ish. I still think most American's do not care about race. But, that percentage is closer to 51% than 90%. I thought of Missouri as part of the midwest, but based on these anecdotes, it seems like it is more South. The kind of institutionalized racism in day-to-day interactions continues.

I'm still not sure what to do about it. And looting is not the answer.

But, the mass protests have a larger, more legitimate context for me.

Missouri is really not part of the midwest, and St. Louis does not define Missouri. Missouri is like the libertarian - bordering on Sovereign Citizen - of the edge between the midwest and the plains. And St. Louis City/north St. Louis County is not like the rest of St. Louis County - just as the St. Louis Metro area is not like the vast majority of the state.

I also would not doubt your friend's stories. I think they are stories that one could hear anywhere in the country (despite pollyanna-ish wishes to the contrary, evil and bigotry will exist as long as there are humans, at least this side of the Second Coming). Overall, I don't think you'll find St. Louis to be any more racist than any other metropolitan city. (Honestly, you're more likely to find racism in some of the more... meth-friendly parts of the state, IYKWIM.)

But none of that has anything to do with the current riots.

 

[T.Lex]

But none of that has anything to do with the current riots.

I think it kinda does.

I see the looters as opportunists. If there's a big peaceful rally walking the streets of downtown, that's where the police presence will be. There just isn't enough police to cover a big rally AND respond to crime. (For which, for the most part, I am grateful; I don't think an officer on every street corner is a good way to govern.) So, the looters seize the opportunity to seize a big screen tv or Air Jordans.

The reason for the rally appears to me to be legitimate. That certain segments abuse that exercise of a right to their own advantage, in the process somewhat de-legitimizing the original action, is... disheartening.

But, there's certainly a 2A parallel. Most, if not all, gun crimes are committed by criminals. We gun owners have always held the position that the illegitimate use of firearms should not de-legitimize our use.