Trump caves

[indyjs]

Pshaw!




If this a "decades old" conspiracy, then why must the solution be done right meow? Why can't be sit down and figure out the right, and comprehensive, solution? Why have landmines so quickly been ruled out? That's a whole lot cheaper, and actually, I could get behind that... A big sign in Spanish, "Don't walk any farther, you will be blown up."


The Cartels will dig up the explosives, as will all the imported terrorists

 

[churchmouse]

Pshaw!

The chicken little thing is getting tiresome, as is the, "Trump said, it must be true!".*


If this a "decades old" conspiracy, then why must the solution be done right meow? Why can't be sit down and figure out the right, and comprehensive, solution? Why have landmines so quickly been ruled out? That's a whole lot cheaper, and actually, I could get behind that... A big sign in Spanish, "Don't walk any farther, you will be blown up."

I'm not anti-wall, I'm not even anti-Trump (despite what INGO'ers say), but I'm anti-manufactured crisis - it's been going on forever, but someone made a campaign promise and wants to get reelected...



(The corollary is just as tiresome, "Trump said, it must be false.")

Ok my friend. Not sure where you live but you are wearing me out. Look around. In the last 10 years our Hispanic population has exploded. Are you blind.
Give it a rest please. Come out my way and lets take a tour. This has all happened since Obama. I have watched it 1st hand.

Yes it has been going on but it has reached epic levels. Believe as you wish. Your call but you are way off base with the issues at hand.

 

[Mongo59]

I will give you a comparison. I spent most of my childhood in central Florida. To start it was just a very hot Indiana. Then TV commercials started to have Spanish subtitles, no problem. Then they we in Spanish with English subtitles, hey what? Then they are in Spanish with no subtitles. Then they have a referendum on "should Spanish become the official language in Florida".

It sounds like the script to some sitcom, but it is true...

 

[traderdan]

That sounds like a rather hyperbolic / circular answer to my question - "I know because I know!".

Nor did you answer my other question: What is the crisis as you see it?

Please help me understand why you consider illegal immigration to be a grave and immediate crisis that can be solved with a wall.

I'll agree that illegal immigration is a very real problem that requires solving, but I'm not sure that a wall is a fix. Maybe it's part of a fix, or maybe it's a boondoggle. IDK.

OK...So I am online infrequently, be patient. I lived near the southern border for several years. If you think that prejudice against illegals is strong among anglo-american citizens, I will tell you that it is really nothing compared to the hatred of the Northern New Mexican, and native populations. US 285 up through NM is a preferred route for Mexican brown heroin going toward Denver. Horrific crimes were commonly committed by traffickers.
None of us believe that a wall is itself a solution. In places the flow must be slowed down. I have traveled recently through Europe, and have observed first hand the plight of citizens in those countries who are overwhelmed by immigrants. We had better change our policies or your nation will continue in its decline. I spent several days in the home of a man whose father was a retired English naval officer who took his family to south Africa. He was raised in SA...and currently lives in western Ireland. Brilliant mind, student of history, retired engineer, he spoke with me for many hours concerning the hope that we might turn the tide of socialism in the US.

 

[traderdan]

We must establish the general principle that illegal immigration is indeed illegal, and will be dealt with. The ruthless tactics needed at the border will never be used by our Nation. We need a barrier to slow them down. Ask the Border Patrol.

 

[traderdan]

Pshaw!




If this a "decades old" conspiracy, then why must the solution be done right meow? Why can't be sit down and figure out the right, and comprehensive, solution? Why have landmines so quickly been ruled out? That's a whole lot cheaper, and actually, I could get behind that... A big sign in Spanish, "Don't walk any farther, you will be blown up."


The Cartels will dig up the explosives, as will all the imported terrorists

It truly is a decades old conspiracy...acted out all over the world. Liberty minded people everywhere are hard to control. Must be overwhelmed....

 

[churchmouse]

OK...So I am online infrequently, be patient. I lived near the southern border for several years. If you think that prejudice against illegals is strong among anglo-american citizens, I will tell you that it is really nothing compared to the hatred of the Northern New Mexican, and native populations. US 285 up through NM is a preferred route for Mexican brown heroin going toward Denver. Horrific crimes were commonly committed by traffickers.
None of us believe that a wall is itself a solution. In places the flow must be slowed down. I have traveled recently through Europe, and have observed first hand the plight of citizens in those countries who are overwhelmed by immigrants. We had better change our policies or your nation will continue in its decline. I spent several days in the home of a man whose father was a retired English naval officer who took his family to south Africa. He was raised in SA...and currently lives in western Ireland. Brilliant mind, student of history, retired engineer, he spoke with me for many hours concerning the hope that we might turn the tide of socialism in the US.

But so many still believe the Bravo Sierra that spews from the tube.

 

[Libertarian01]

But so many still believe the Bravo Sierra that spews from the tube.

The problem is that the "news" is tainted from both sides, liberal and conservative.

I believe this started back in the 50's and has slowly crept into how news is done, ever since they started paying attention to ratings. "Just the facts" doesn't sell. It is boring. It is not sexy.

So what makes it sexy? Editorializing! Put a spin on it, spill some blood, show some leg, anything to beef the ratings. The left spins it liberal, and the right spins it conservative. Who is left that we can trust to just give us facts? Very few. Actually, I do not believe there is ANY from the tube. I get most of my news from AP online. I do listen to NPR which has a slight tom moderate left spin (depending on the program) on the radio, but that's not the tube.

Don't forget, Edward R Murrow's "See it Now" was pushed out by higher ratings from quiz shows. That was late 50's.

A very sad time we've been living in.

Regards,

Doug

 

[CampingJosh]

I have traveled recently through Europe, and have observed first hand the plight of citizens in those countries who are overwhelmed by immigrants. We had better change our policies or your nation will continue in its decline.

Please list out for me some of the decline you see occurring in the United States and how illegal immigration has caused it. Serious request here. I don't see a lot of decline in the U.S., and that which I do see I wouldn't lay at the feet of illegal immigrants.

 

[Libertarian01]

Please list out for me some of the decline you see occurring in the United States and how illegal immigration has caused it. Serious request here. I don't see a lot of decline in the U.S., and that which I do see I wouldn't lay at the feet of illegal immigrants.

I can answer this. Illegal immigration has depressed wages across all sorts of industries for American workers.

Look at the landscaping industry. How many of their "workers" are white or black or Asian? They will hire mostly Hispanic because, according to them, "Whites and blacks and Asians won't do the work." This is not true. The truth is that whites and blacks and Asians won't do the work for what landscaping companies want to pay them. If the landscaping companies, construction companies, and other labor intensive industries didn't have an illegal pool of workers to draw upon they would all, across the board, be forced to increase wages.

Supply and demand only works when everyone is playing on an equal playing field.

I am NOT against immigration. Heck, I support simplifying it and making it easier. I AM against illegal immigration.

Regards,

Doug

PS - I took a landscaping class a couple years ago, so I saw this issue first hand.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I can answer this. Illegal immigration has depressed wages across all sorts of industries for American workers.

Look at the landscaping industry. How many of their "workers" are white or black or Asian? They will hire mostly Hispanic because, according to them, "Whites and blacks and Asians won't do the work." This is not true. The truth is that whites and blacks and Asians won't do the work for what landscaping companies want to pay them. If the landscaping companies, construction companies, and other labor intensive industries didn't have an illegal pool of workers to draw upon they would all, across the board, be forced to increase wages.

Supply and demand only works when everyone is playing on an equal playing field.

I am NOT against immigration. Heck, I support simplifying it and making it easier. I AM against illegal immigration.

Regards,

Doug

PS - I took a landscaping class a couple years ago, so I saw this issue first hand.

It's difficult for this reasoning to stick, as illegal, free, and cheap labor; has existed on a massive scale, in the United States, since the beginning. Irish/Italians in the east, Chinese in the west, and Blacks in the South, were all accused of such.

 

[Libertarian01]

It's difficult for this reasoning to stick, as illegal, free, and cheap labor; has existed on a massive scale, in the United States, since the beginning. Irish/Italians in the east, Chinese in the west, and Blacks in the South, were all accused of such.

In the time frame you are discussing it was neither illegal nor free. Immoral and unethical, yes. Illegal, no.

This abuse brought about organized labor with unions, strikes, and other forms of struggle.

Today, with the decline of unions we no longer have scabs. We have illegal workers. Same effect, but this time against the law.

Regards,

Doug

 

[CampingJosh]

[I can answer this. Illegal immigration has depressed wages across all sorts of industries for American workers.

Look at the landscaping industry. How many of their "workers" are white or black or Asian? They will hire mostly Hispanic because, according to them, "Whites and blacks and Asians won't do the work." This is not true. The truth is that whites and blacks and Asians won't do the work for what landscaping companies want to pay them. If the landscaping companies, construction companies, and other labor intensive industries didn't have an illegal pool of workers to draw upon they would all, across the board, be forced to increase wages.

Ehh. Maybe, but it isn't that simple.

Increased wages means increased cost which decreases demand. It's not just that landscaping companies want to pay low wages; landscaping customers do too.

If you have to pay $20 per labor hour rather than $10, demand drops by more than half. If your money only buys you half as much, you often decide the purchase isn't worth it at all.

Increased population typically grows the economy; new people buy things like food, housing, cars, and more. As much as immigrants are competition in the job market, they are fo the same degree customers for everyone's products and services.

Supply and demand only works when everyone is playing on an equal playing field.

I am NOT against immigration. Heck, I support simplifying it and making it easier. I AM against illegal immigration.

Regards,

Doug

PS - I took a landscaping class a couple years ago, so I saw this issue first hand.

How does illegal immigration itself create an unequal playing field? Are immigrants trading something other than their labor in exchange for their wages? Honestly, declaring a giant group of people unable to compete in the market is what makes a playing field unfair.
(Yes, I understand that employers often pay illegal immigrants off the books so as to avoid taxes. That's on the American employers, not the illegal immigrants.)

I, too, am against illegal immigration. I just haven't yet heard good reasons to make or keep much immigration illegal.

 

[Libertarian01]

Ehh. Maybe, but it isn't that simple.

Increased wages means increased cost which decreases demand. It's not just that landscaping companies want to pay low wages; landscaping customers do too.

If you have to pay $20 per labor hour rather than $10, demand drops by more than half. If your money only buys you half as much, you often decide the purchase isn't worth it at all.

Increased population typically grows the economy; new people buy things like food, housing, cars, and more. As much as immigrants are competition in the job market, they are fo the same degree customers for everyone's products and services.



How does illegal immigration itself create an unequal playing field? Are immigrants trading something other than their labor in exchange for their wages? Honestly, declaring a giant group of people unable to compete in the market is what makes a playing field unfair.
(Yes, I understand that employers often pay illegal immigrants off the books so as to avoid taxes. That's on the American employers, not the illegal immigrants.)

I, too, am against illegal immigration. I just haven't yet heard good reasons to make or keep much immigration illegal.

Increased costs do not necessarily decrease demand. In landscaping, for example, yes a personal homeowner may choose to not pay for increased costs. A business, on the other hand is an entirely different story. A law firm that owns their own building isn't going to want to have the lawyers come in and mow, nor the paralegals, nor anyone else. They will simply increase their rates and pass this on to the consumer. Any small business for that matter. It is more financially prudent for the moneymakers to work at making money and pay others to do labor.

Say I run a restaurant and sell burgers all at standard costs rates. This would mean 1/3 to overhead, 1/3 to supply, and 1/3 to labor. Keeping all things equal say I pay $1 for each and want to make a whopping 10% profit. So my burger costs me $3 to make and I charge $3.30. Now let's say I am forced to increase my labor cost by a massive doubling of labor. So now my burger will cost me $4 to make and I'll sell it for $4.40. That is only a 1/3 increase to the customer. Will I lose some customers? Sure. But my profits will go up per burger on each sale from $0.30 to $0.40. Let's presume I loose 10% of my business due to higher costs. So if I were selling 200 burgers a day at a $0.30 profit this would equal $60 per day profit. Losing 10% of my business I go from 200 burgers a day to 180 burgers per day at $0.40 per burger. This means my profits will go [STRIKE]down[/STRIKE], i mean up, to $72 per day. Oh my goodness, how horrible - in this example. Even if I just increased wages a mere 50%, the cost of my burger would soar from $3.30 to $3.85. This would not cost me many folks at all.

The purchasing power of the illegal worker also is not equal to the purchasing power of a legal person with a better income. A poor illegal will have extremely limited to no discretionary income compared to even a legal immigrant who cannot be threatened by unscrupulous employers with ICE.

How an illegal immigrant does damage is simply by providing the opportunity to undercut costs for an unscrupulous employer. Once that happens and is NOT prosecuted this then creates a systemic problem by forcing all other employers to lower costs, including wages, by whatever means necessary. This then lowers industry standards to the lowest common denominator. Remove the opportunity and you remove the depressed wages. And don't get me wrong, it isn't just illegal labor that I am against. I am against almost all work visa's to come to the United States. You cannot tell me in over 90% of the cases we cannot find an American citizen to do the job, only that we cannot find an American citizen to do the job at the wages the employer wants to pay.

Also, when illegals get paid under the table their input into taxes doesn't exist. This means that while they use water, create garbage, drive on our roads creating normal wear and tear, etc they do not pay for the costs that they create.

I am not saying that these people are malicious, immoral, unethical, or violent criminals in any way! The damage they cause is tangential to their very existence here. I want them here. But I want them here legally.

It also is not just a few hundred or a few thousand. The impact there would truly be negligible and the conversation would be much different. A single teenage girl shoplifting some makeup really costs retail business nothing, yet it is the massive numbers cost us over $35 million per day, or $13 billion per year.

In 2016 there were estimated to be 7.8 million unauthorized immigrants in the workforce. As they likely concentrate into specific areas such as landscaping, construction and not into nuclear physics, law enforcement, and medical doctors their impact where they do concentrate is higher than the base number would suggest.

Link: 5 facts about illegal immigration in the U.S. | Pew Research Center

And finally, let's just look at the simple legality of it. Let's say someone just moves into your home without asking permission. They do no real damage and come and go as they please. They mean you no harm, cause none directly, only through normal wear and tear. Even with no malice and no harm done you would not be unjustified or in the wrong for wanting them out, would you?

Regards,

Doug

 

[jamil]

It's difficult for this reasoning to stick, as illegal, free, and cheap labor; has existed on a massive scale, in the United States, since the beginning. Irish/Italians in the east, Chinese in the west, and Blacks in the South, were all accused of such.

I think that reasoning fails to stick. You can’t say prior examples of depressed wages are evidence that wages weren’t depressed. But nevertheless, those examples weren’t subject to the laws we have today, which give illegal workers a greater advantage beyond just the lower wage over legal workers. Are you really trying to say that if the illegal workers had some kind of legal status which allowed them to abide by all the labor laws, that they wouldn’t demand the same wages that other legal workers demand? Basic economics tell us the impact of articlficially cheep labor on the market.

 

[bwframe]

We could make employing non-citizens a felony tomorrow and the need for the wall would not go away. There would still be the drug flow. Not to mention the underground economy that is bolstered by drugs and illegals.

 

[churchmouse]

We could make employing non-citizens a felony tomorrow and the need for the wall would not go away. There would still be the drug flow. Not to mention the underground economy that is bolstered by drugs and illegals.

Work for cash. I know of maybe 6 places in Indy they gather and people that need day work pick who they want and pay them cash. Washington and State is well known for this.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I think that reasoning fails to stick. You can’t say prior examples of depressed wages are evidence that wages weren’t depressed. But nevertheless, those examples weren’t subject to the laws we have today, which give illegal workers a greater advantage beyond just the lower wage over legal workers. Are you really trying to say that if the illegal workers had some kind of legal status which allowed them to abide by all the labor laws, that they wouldn’t demand the same wages that other legal workers demand? Basic economics tell us the impact of articlficially cheep labor on the market.

I'm not saying that. I'm hinting at if the employment of illegals is a reason America is declining, why wasn't the same the case for European immigrants, Asians immigrants, and a steady increase in non-free persons?

 

[CampingJosh]

Increased costs do not necessarily decrease demand. In landscaping, for example, yes a personal homeowner may choose to not pay for increased costs. A business, on the other hand is an entirely different story. A law firm that owns their own building isn't going to want to have the lawyers come in and mow, nor the paralegals, nor anyone else. They will simply increase their rates and pass this on to the consumer. Any small business for that matter. It is more financially prudent for the moneymakers to work at making money and pay others to do labor.

No, increased prices cut demand; you're not going to get away with denying one of the most basic aspects of economics.

Even in the law firm example, some of those customers are going to going to make different choices based on the increased prices. They will still have someone mow, yes, but they might choose decorative plants that are less labor intensive, or they might choose to decorate with more gravel than grass.

And landscaping is an industry where a huge portion of the expense is labor. A $400 trimmer is going to get maybe $1000 in fuel and many, many thousands of dollars in labor costs. Increased labor costs in landscaping raise the price quickly.

Say I run a restaurant and sell burgers all at standard costs rates. This would mean 1/3 to overhead, 1/3 to supply, and 1/3 to labor. Keeping all things equal say I pay $1 for each and want to make a whopping 10% profit. So my burger costs me $3 to make and I charge $3.30. Now let's say I am forced to increase my labor cost by a massive doubling of labor. So now my burger will cost me $4 to make and I'll sell it for $4.40. That is only a 1/3 increase to the customer. Will I lose some customers? Sure. But my profits will go up per burger on each sale from $0.30 to $0.40. Let's presume I loose 10% of my business due to higher costs. So if I were selling 200 burgers a day at a $0.30 profit this would equal $60 per day profit. Losing 10% of my business I go from 200 burgers a day to 180 burgers per day at $0.40 per burger. This means my profits will go [STRIKE]down[/STRIKE], i mean up, to $72 per day. Oh my goodness, how horrible - in this example. Even if I just increased wages a mere 50%, the cost of my burger would soar from $3.30 to $3.85. This would not cost me many folks at all.

So you think restaurateurs are stupid? If just raising the price of a hamburger brings in more money, then why are they keeping their prices down now? That burger should already be $3.85.

Either that or your example is flawed enough that it is of no use.

The purchasing power of the illegal worker also is not equal to the purchasing power of a legal person with a better income. A poor illegal will have extremely limited to no discretionary income compared to even a legal immigrant who cannot be threatened by unscrupulous employers with ICE.

Irrelevant. Actually maybe works against you. After all, if a worker has to spend all they make, that's consumer spending, right? Consumer spending is a big driver of economic growth.

How an illegal immigrant does damage is simply by providing the opportunity to undercut costs for an unscrupulous employer. Once that happens and is NOT prosecuted this then creates a systemic problem by forcing all other employers to lower costs, including wages, by whatever means necessary. This then lowers industry standards to the lowest common denominator. Remove the opportunity and you remove the depressed wages. And don't get me wrong, it isn't just illegal labor that I am against. I am against almost all work visa's to come to the United States. You cannot tell me in over 90% of the cases we cannot find an American citizen to do the job, only that we cannot find an American citizen to do the job at the wages the employer wants to pay.

Unemployment is about 4.1%. That's under what is generally called "full employment." So yes, I will assert that we don't have enough workers and that you can't find enough Americans to do the jobs.

A portion of work visas are for very high paying jobs. It's not that there are plenty of qualified computer programmers who are sitting unemployed while Microsoft imports people from India and China to pay them tiny six-figure salaries. It's that there is more to do than there are people here with the skills to do it all.

Stopping work visas for farm labor will only change one thing. The people who hand-pick fruits and vegetables will still be people who were born in Latin America; it's just that the farms here will close and more farms in Mexico will open. That's cutting off a finger from your left hand to make sure your right hand has an advantage.

Also, when illegals get paid under the table their input into taxes doesn't exist. This means that while they use water, create garbage, drive on our roads creating normal wear and tear, etc they do not pay for the costs that they create.

First, you're describing crimes committed by Americans and assigning the blame to illegal immigrants. Employers are the ones dodging taxes, not employees. That's how the withholding system works. (Yes, I understand that employees who don't have enough withheld still owe the taxes. But it's still the employer is dodging taxes for sure.)

Second, that's not an argument against the illegal immigrants. If anything, it's an argument why strict immigration laws are bad, since they create the opportunity for this black market.

Third, what do you mean they don't pay a water bill? They don't pay for garbage collection? Is there anywhere that those things are paid for out of income taxes?

I am not saying that these people are malicious, immoral, unethical, or violent criminals in any way! The damage they cause is tangential to their very existence here. I want them here. But I want them here legally.

So you are good with just declaring amnesty immediately, right? That takes away the opportunity for scummy Americans to dodge taxes. That would be a good fix then, right?

It also is not just a few hundred or a few thousand. The impact there would truly be negligible and the conversation would be much different. A single teenage girl shoplifting some makeup really costs retail business nothing, yet it is the massive numbers cost us over $35 million per day, or $13 billion per year.

In 2016 there were estimated to be 7.8 million unauthorized immigrants in the workforce. As they likely concentrate into specific areas such as landscaping, construction and not into nuclear physics, law enforcement, and medical doctors their impact where they do concentrate is higher than the base number would suggest.

Link: 5 facts about illegal immigration in the U.S. | Pew Research Center

If someone who grew up in the U.S.--with the advantage of public schooling and being a native-born English speaker--doesn't have any skillset that allows them to outcompete a person who grew up in a "s***hole" country and doesn't even speak the language, I honestly don't have a ton of pity.

Develop a skill. Make yourself more valuable. There are tons of opportunities to do so. (I mean "yourself" in the general sense rather than directed at you, Libertarian01.)

Using the government to limit competition so that you can win is very much anti-libertarian.

And finally, let's just look at the simple legality of it. Let's say someone just moves into your home without asking permission. They do no real damage and come and go as they please. They mean you no harm, cause none directly, only through normal wear and tear. Even with no malice and no harm done you would not be unjustified or in the wrong for wanting them out, would you?

Regards,

Doug

Do you seriously want to use that as your analogy?

These people are working and paying their own way. This isn't a matter of someone else living in the area you pay for.

Honestly, this analogy sounds like you want your neighbors to ask your permission before they decide to have children. After all, what is the difference between a child from Honduras who lives in the appartment building down the street and the white family in the very next apartment having a baby? That's just going to be another person competing for my job!

 

[JettaKnight]

But so many still believe the Bravo Sierra that spews from the tube.

Sorry - Are we talking about the YouTube or the television? Are we talking about the BS from the left or the right?