The (Current year) General Political/Salma Hayek discussion Thread Part V

[BugI02]

My grandfather use to do this. I understood his reasoning then, but does it actually make a difference in the long run? What's with you oldsters?

It is a combination of keeping the money working for me as long as possible combined with a reluctance to knuckle under to the man until I absolutely have to

 

[BugI02]

Jack mother****ing Thompson? That disbarred attorney activist? I think that's who you're referencing.

...

Couple quick questions:

I almost thought there were two different discussions going on when I saw the FBI/rise in violence stuff... because none of it was pertaining to games. Not sure of its relevance when games aren't tied to it at all... unless we're trying to say "violence rose around 1980 to today" and pretend it has exclusively something to do with games, and not every other media form ever.

Rape was mentioned. I've seen rape in far more TV and movies than I have any video games. I'm struggling to think of a video game that depicted it (not shovelware). I think I could come up with an attempted sexual assault, or even implied... but those can be legit story-building mechanics.

The latency of your processing of the discussion is noted. I'm somewhat surprised, all the information on why concepts are included at certain times in response to certain post is available to a careful reading

Perhaps righteous indignation interferes with processing speed/comprehension?

 

[ArcadiaGP]

The latency of your processing of the discussion is noted. I'm somewhat surprised, all the information on why concepts are included at certain times in response to certain post is available to a careful reading

But I still barely see the relevance. It's a moot point, increase or decrease, because there's no way to narrow it down from the countless other factors to gaming specifically.

Especially since neither person involved mentioned "gaming" in their longer posts about it. Didn't see why it was brought up.

 

[Ingomike]

 

[nonobaddog]

I wanna see a slo-mo of her doing a mag dump with that.

 

[BugI02]

But I still barely see the relevance. It's a moot point, increase or decrease, because there's no way to narrow it down from the countless other factors to gaming specifically.

Especially since neither person involved mentioned "gaming" in their longer posts about it. Didn't see why it was brought up.

So how can people so confidently conclude it isn't a factor, other than just because they want to. Cryptocurrency is and has been used in criminal activity. If there has been no marked rise in criminal activity since the advent of cryptocurrency can we therefore conclude that cryptocurrency contributes nothing to the expression of criminal tendencies (this is an analogy, BTW, not a change of subject). In my mind it is the same thing with murder-rich gaming, nothing has yet convinced me that science knows what the variables are, which are dependent variables or that anything psychologists are doing can even be called science (reproducibility, anyone)

If you look at the graph of the number of annual murders in the US by year in my FBI cite, the rate mostly fell steadily from 2008 to 2014, spiked from 2014 to 2016 and rolled off again from 2016 on

Using the evidentiary standards for which you wish to claim no effect of violent gaming because no aggregate effect on overall crime statistics, I could just as comfortably claim Obama caused the murder rate to drop (2008 to 2014) until weed became widely legalized (2014) when that caused the murder rate to increase until Trump was elected (2016) when he caused the rate to resume its decline

 

[ArcadiaGP]

So how can people so confidently conclude it isn't a factor, other than just because they want to. Cryptocurrency is and has been used in criminal activity. If there has been no marked rise in criminal activity since the advent of cryptocurrency can we therefore conclude that cryptocurrency contributes nothing to the expression of criminal tendencies (this is an analogy, BTW, not a change of subject). In my mind it is the same thing with murder-rich gaming, nothing has yet convinced me that science knows what the variables are, which are dependent variables or that anything psychologists are doing can even be called science (reproducibility, anyone)

If you look at the graph of the number of annual murders in the US by year in my FBI cite, the rate mostly fell steadily from 2008 to 2014, spiked from 2014 to 2016 and rolled off again from 2016 on

Using the evidentiary standards for which you wish to claim no effect of violent gaming because no aggregate effect on overall crime statistics, I could just as comfortably claim Obama caused the murder rate to drop (2008 to 2014) until weed became widely legalized (2014) when that caused the murder rate to increase until Trump was elected (2016) when he caused the rate to resume its decline

In my opinion, because people don't seem serious when they use it as a scapegoat. Right, Left... one common factor seems to be older people that probably didn't grow up with or get into games.

If there were serious concerns about it, like what was dredged up in the 90s to ultimately form the ESRB, I think we'd see people mention it more often than just a passing phrase that gets no follow-up.

These same people barely, or not at all, mention other forms of media that are far more prevalent in life as factors to the same argument.

So, to me, it seems more like a personal vendetta against games, things people don't understand, or "the youngs". And when presented with studies that can't seem to find connections... that never seems to be enough.

Yes, Bug, we don't have a 100% be-all end-all massive research project on this to decide, once-and-for-all, a quirk about the human mind. Like many, many other arguments/topics. So if you want to fall back on "Yeah, but we can't say they don't influence violence...", that's on you if you feel comfortable with that conclusion.

I have opinions on games.
You have opinions on games.

I guess that's where it all ends. I'm certainly not asking anyone here to like games if they don't want to. I'd just like more depth when it comes to disliking them for something that isn't proven, is formed by feels/opinions, and is probably based on misunderstanding the medium.

I assure you, I won't come here pretending to be an expert on airplanes, or say anything about them with any air of authority.

 

[BugI02]

I wanna see a slo-mo of her doing a mag dump with that.

And a little bit lower camera angle

 

[BugI02]

In my opinion, because people don't seem serious when they use it as a scapegoat. Right, Left... one common factor seems to be older people that probably didn't grow up with or get into games.

If there were serious concerns about it, like what was dredged up in the 90s to ultimately form the ESRB, I think we'd see people mention it more often than just a passing phrase that gets no follow-up.

These same people barely, or not at all, mention other forms of media that are far more prevalent in life as factors to the same argument.

So, to me, it seems more like a personal vendetta against games, things people don't understand, or "the youngs". And when presented with studies that can't seem to find connections... that never seems to be enough.

Yes, Bug, we don't have a 100% be-all end-all massive research project on this to decide, once-and-for-all, a quirk about the human mind. Like many, many other arguments/topics. So if you want to fall back on "Yeah, but we can't say they don't influence violence...", that's on you if you feel comfortable with that conclusion.

I have opinions on games.
You have opinions on games.

I guess that's where it all ends. I'm certainly not asking anyone here to like games if they don't want to. I'd just like more depth when it comes to disliking them for something that isn't proven, is formed by feels/opinions, and is probably based on misunderstanding the medium.

I assure you, I won't come here pretending to be an expert on airplanes, or say anything about them with any air of authority.

Then take gaming out of it. Do you think striving for amorality and immorality in art of all types is a net positive or net negative for humanity as a whole? Is it necessary to thoroughly plumb the depths of what is currently acceptable, and more importantly where do we go from here? Should the Overton Window (I owe you a quarter, jamil) for artistic license look so much like a toilet seat?

Would the world have been inconceivably harmed, would the next Einstein have been stillborn, if random murder had never been made into a form of entertainment

 

[Kutnupe14]

Does gaming cause violence. I doubt it. But the caveat is, that it probably does, as with a lot of media, desensitize us to violence. That just makes sense, at least to me.

 

[PaulF]

My avatar is Darth Vader, but I could never be a good Sith. Not even in fantasy. I couldn’t bring myself to having Arther just randomly murder people. It’s not that I didn’t want to harm innocents. They’re just npc’s. I didn’t want Arther’s character to be besmirched. It’s irrational. But there it is.

Its really funny you mention that...not wanting to besmirch Arthur's honor. I have two RDR2 saves on my xbox. In my first playthrough I played Arthur as a b-movie villain. I started the second when I found out that my decisions with Arthur in-game would change his outcome in the game. I really got attached to that guy. My second start...that dude was an angel!

My favorite game for letting off steam is GTAV. I have an old end-game save where my dudes all have a bunch of money, so I'll load that up (single player) and drive Trevor over to Ammu-nation to drop, like, three-quarters of a million dollars on rocket lauchers and minigun ammo.

Then I'll take Trevor to one of my good hidey spots in the hills north of los santos...First with an anti-materiel rifle at some distance, then with a belt-fed machine gun once the cops close to medium distance, and finally the minigun at close range. He's like the terminator...the Trevor800.

After a while the feds show up, and they have a really cool truck. When I get bored with my rampage I like to take one of those trucks and break onto the military base...where I steal an F-16 and ecape into the night sky...

Sometimes it works! Sometimes I get killed by the cops, or the military, or my own driving...I find it a great way to vent frustration and let go of pent-up negative energy.

 

[PaulF]

Then take gaming out of it. Do you think striving for amorality and immorality in art of all types is a net positive or net negative for humanity as a whole? Is it necessary to thoroughly plumb the depths of what is currently acceptable, and more importantly where do we go from here? Should the Overton Window (I owe you a quarter, jamil) for artistic license look so much like a toilet seat?

Would the world have been inconceivably harmed, would the next Einstein have been stillborn, if random murder had never been made into a form of entertainment

It goes way back though...think of the games in Roman times. Right now there are youtube channels dedicated to collecting videos that document the deaths or heinous injuries of actual people. Aren't violent video games a materially better...or, at least, more appropriate way to satisfy our deep-seeded animal desires than literal bloodsport or electronic voyeurism?

 

[Alpo]

Just don’t play video games in a trailer park!

Alpo you wanna attend a DJT rally with me?

Thanks for askin, Brad. But I'm not fond of Yuge crowds. Now, if The Mouse was holding a get-together for cheeseburgers....I would probably figure out a way to get there.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Then take gaming out of it. Do you think striving for amorality and immorality in art of all types is a net positive or net negative for humanity as a whole? Is it necessary to thoroughly plumb the depths of what is currently acceptable, and more importantly where do we go from here? Should the Overton Window (I owe you a quarter, jamil) for artistic license look so much like a toilet seat?

Would the world have been inconceivably harmed, would the next Einstein have been stillborn, if random murder had never been made into a form of entertainment

Hm, if we're going to include all types... where do we draw the line, then? I'm sure there has been more violence committed in the name of a few books than any video game.

Do we strive to restrict certain people from watching some shows, reading some books, seeing some movies? We already have rating systems for all of these things, for the most part.

Regarding "toilet seat" - Is this your opinion of what gaming consists of? Violent games are a very small part of games as a whole.

Let's entertain the idea that immorality in all forms of media (including these hobbies) leads to bad things in humanity. Doesn't freedom come with that cost? We all agree (I think) that a free society comes with inherent and acceptable risk. I'd rather have my guns and a few people misuse them every year... than not have them at all.

 

[d.kaufman]

Thanks for askin, Brad. But I'm not fond of Yuge crowds. Now, if The Mouse was holding a get-together for cheeseburgers....I would probably figure out a way to get there.

Hell, I'd make the drive to Indy for that myself

 

[Leadeye]

Are people taught to place a low value on another human's life, or is it in the genome?

If they are taught, why couldn't carnage-infused video games be a contributor to that 'education' just as well as absent father figures or lack of a moral framework. No one influence can be said to be the critical one, but to my mind that just suggests all the potentially corrupting influences should be considered

What I would want to see is the drug related numbers broken out before looking at the rest. It's a violent business and gets nastier every year. These incidences are related to money and power so we shouldn't include them in making an evaluation about the influence of video games. Back in my day we played cops/robbers, cowboy/indians, army, etc., we didn't have video games. Academics today would probably regard that as violent behavior.

 

[BugI02]

You don't think the next generation of little zetas might be playing FPS games even now?

 

[Leadeye]

Help me out here, I don't know the terms "little zetas" or " FPS games". Old age and living in the woods has it's good points, but modern words and terms get by me.

 

[BugI02]

Hm, if we're going to include all types... where do we draw the line, then? I'm sure there has been more violence committed in the name of a few books than any video game.

Do we strive to restrict certain people from watching some shows, reading some books, seeing some movies? We already have rating systems for all of these things, for the most part.

Regarding "toilet seat" - Is this your opinion of what gaming consists of? Violent games are a very small part of games as a whole.

Let's entertain the idea that immorality in all forms of media (including these hobbies) leads to bad things in humanity. Doesn't freedom come with that cost? We all agree (I think) that a free society comes with inherent and acceptable risk. I'd rather have my guns and a few people misuse them every year... than not have them at all.

There should be an analog to Godwin's Law related to dragging 'it will be your gun rights next' into these discussions. Oy

Maybe we should exhaustively study whatever mass murderers we manage to capture and try to see just what ingredients go into making a heartless killer. There are some clues in how child soldiers are made

 

[BugI02]

Help me out here, I don't know the terms "little zetas" or " FPS games". Old age and living in the woods has it's good points, but modern words and terms get by me.

The zetas are one of the most violent cartels, much more willing to use murder and terror to control their territory and businesses. FPS is first person shooter, but I would also include 'stabber' or slicer' for the ess in order to include knives and swords