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  • Sigblaster

    Soon...
    Rating - 100%
    53   0   0
    Apr 2, 2008
    1,224
    129
    Indy
    You want to have some more fun with the law?

    27 CFR § 478.11 defines a frame or receiver as this:

    "Firearm frame or receiver. That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel."

    Do you see the problem with this? The AR-15 pattern rifle (among others) has a split receiver, where not all of the moving parts are contained in a single housing. ATF, in its infinite idiocy, determined that the lower receiver should be classified as the receiver, and be the serialized part. This has come back to bite them in the arse in court, and they are unwilling to go full tilt in prosecuting cases based on posession of lower receivers, as a ruling on that classification would wreck their peckers.

    Want another fun topic for discussion?

    If the 80% rule was appiled uniformly, wouldn't nearly all fully finished AR-15 pattern lowers be greater than 80% finished machine gun receivers? Clearly, the small amount of machining necessary to convert most semi lowers into auto lowers is less than 20% of the finished product. Yes, I know the fire control group would have to be swapped out, but the parts aren't the issue, the receiver is. So why aren't AR lowers considered to be greater than 80% completed machine gun receivers, and regulated as such?

    I could come up with more crazy crap if you want to hear it, but that's enough for now, I think.:):
     

    Ingomike

    Top Hand
    Rating - 100%
    6   0   0
    May 26, 2018
    29,107
    113
    North Central
    Personally I think the 80% trick was a stretch and should never have been allowed. But you do you. I'm not going to fight against allowing them.

    Allowed by whom? The unelected bureaucrats at the ATF?

    Personally, I believe the GCA shouldn't exist AT ALL, but since the congressional knuckleheads who wrote the unconstitutional law failed to properly define the terms "frame" and "receiver", it was up to the ATF to define them. They came up with the 80% rule.

    What percentage would you suggest they use? 50%? 25%? 0%?

    At what point is a brick of metal or plastic machined enough to go from being a paperweight to a frame or receiver?

    Yes, when does a piece of material become a firearm?
     

    Sigblaster

    Soon...
    Rating - 100%
    53   0   0
    Apr 2, 2008
    1,224
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    Indy
    Yes, when does a piece of material become a firearm?

    Apparently, at this point in their circular logic:

    Firearm. Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include an antique firearm. In the case of a licensed collector, the term shall mean only curios and relics.

    A receiver is a firearm all on its own, without any additional parts added.

    But wait, there's more!

    Machine gun. Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. For purposes of this definition, the term “automatically” as it modifies “shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot,” means functioning as the result of a self-acting or self-regulating mechanism that allows the firing of multiple rounds through a single function of the trigger; and “single function of the trigger” means a single pull of the trigger and analogous motions. The term “machine gun” includes a bump-stock-type device, i.e., a device that allows a semi-automatic firearm to shoot more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger by harnessing the recoil energy of the semi-automatic firearm to which it is affixed so that the trigger resets and continues firing without additional physical manipulation of the trigger by the shooter.

    Whoa, whoa, whoa, that last bit is new. How weird. That wasn't there a couple years ago.

    I have a rather radical idea about one part of the machingegun rule, though. It's rooted in the technicalities of it. I wish I was more well-versed in engineering and the law, because I'd probably make money if I could make it work. Crazy crap, for sure, but it just might work. :abused:
     

    Karl-just-Karl

    Retired
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 5, 2014
    1,205
    113
    NE
    As we progress as a society, people on both sides of the fence continue insisting that EVERYTHING be described, regulated, defined and controlled so the meaning and intent of the law is incontrovertible, undeniable, and unarguable.

    I understand where you are coming from here Sigblaster. It is the very thing that is being used against the citizens of the United States everyday. It is an assault on liberty itself.
    It is an attack on individual rights. It encourages the reckoning that our society should become a society of lawyers, for lawyers and by lawyers.

    That is not the world or the country we should be. Is this where you (generally directed to all readers of this thread) want to be?

    I do not look forward to the future where I and everything I own and every interaction I am involved in is defined and controlled by regulation and definition.

    But it is coming because everyone keeps asking... no, demanding it, for defense and offense.
     

    T.Lex

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    Mar 30, 2011
    25,859
    113
    Perhaps 2A conservatives will find the balls to stand up against the next gun-grabbing POTUS. You know - the ones they lost when the current gun-grabbing POTUS was elected.

    [Hey Jetta.] :D
     

    dudley0

    Nobody Important
    Rating - 100%
    99   0   0
    Mar 19, 2010
    3,752
    113
    Grant County
    I wanted to get another 10" upper for a build in progress. But now, with all the hype, everyone is either sold out or have bumped the prices too much for me.

    Damnit, I just wanted a pistol build with the folding stock.
     

    worddoer

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    42   0   1
    Jul 25, 2011
    1,664
    99
    Wells County
    Biden team talks with ATF for pistol brace & 80% lower ban

    https://www.ammoland.com/2020/11/atf-working-biden-transition-team-ban-pistol-braces/#axzz6dUwq2Hwj

    I am just going to repost this here.....

    There are a portion of gun owners that are willing to let others guns be taken away.....as long as they get to keep the guns they want. Cough...cough...those arguing AR/AK pistols and/or pistol braces should be forced to the NFA like their SBR's.

    If someone is not willing to defend someone else's rights, then they don't deserve the rights they have. "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves" Abraham Lincoln in letter to H.L. Pierce.

    Most soldiers who give their lives for this country do so with the knowledge that they were defending the rights of others.... rights they themselves may never use. Selling out the rights of others because you don't personally use that right is a self centered and narcissistic thing to do.

    There appear to be even some here that don't see the inconsistency of supporting restrictions and obstacles to the practice of a natural right to the ownership of firearms (like the NFA) while rejecting any restrictions to other rights like freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Those same people would most likely be quite upset if they had to submit a report for government pre-approval and pay a $200 fee each time they would like to exercise their freedom of speech or their freedom of religion. Restrictions on freedom and liberty are wrong...all of them.

    Many of these people don't even know how restricted our firearms freedoms have become in the last 100 years. Many including myself have learned this information and have had enough. We will no longer stand by and let our freedoms be further taken away. We will become even more active and politically involved and take every legal measure necessary to maintain and if at all possible regain our natural rights.

    In 1934 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the National Firearms Act. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.

    In 1938 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Federal Firearms Act. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.

    In 1968 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Gun Control Act. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.

    In 1986 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Firearms Owners Protection Act (protection by banning stuff???). But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.

    In 1993 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.

    In 1994 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act (AKA assault weapons ban). Thankfully that was only in force from 1994-2004. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done and are still trying to reinstate it.

    In 2019 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Bump Stock Ban. A ban that was not voted on by congress or in any legislation, but arbitrarily "written" into law by an unelected and unaccountable bureaucrat, while offering no grandfathering option breaking the ex-post-facto laws. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.

    In 2020 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." And right now we are seeing a stirring to ban pistol braces and all larger pistols. Are we once again going to idly stand by and let this happen like all the others? Those who do, those who refuse to defend the freedom of others even if they don't use that freedom, those are self centered, narcissistic people.

    As you can see above, we have tried 7 times to compromise and it only came to us losing more rights while the other side gave nothing. The other side has worn that card out. There is no compromise that will ever be enough. They only continue to ask for more and more and more.

    After losing a BIG chunk of our rights and trying this approach 7 different times, we as firearm owners have had enough. The anti-gun crowd has proven that they will never, never, never be satiated. And those who think that the anti-gun crowd will not ban NFA items the instant they have enough control are foolish. They have stated publicly many times they would LOVE to remove the NFA and ban all those items. How will that little $200 stamp save you when that happens?

    The anti-gun crowd hunger, thirst and dream of gun control. And although they might be a minority of the population, the 2/3 of American's in the middle are apathetic enough they will not spend time, money, resources or clout to defend something that they themselves do not care about.

    That is why many gun owners, including myself, believe that the time for compromise (including the NFA) is over. It is time to draw a line. And any politician who crosses that line will have a very, very hard time during their next election cycle. We will do everything we can to elect pro gun people into office and get these current anti-gun politicians voted out!
     
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