Negligent discharges and injuries/death

[NHT3]

This is a spinoff of the thread about the ND causing death at the SPB. I can't count the number of times I chastised people for pointing guns at themselves and others when RSOing. More often than not I was told "it's not loaded", scowled at or complaints logged with managment for disrespecting them (that was the perception) in front of others.. Owning a gun IS a right but handling it in public should require at the very least a basic safety training class and holding a LTCH some sort of simple shooting qualification at a range. This is my opinion but I'm interested in what others think.
What do Y'all think and please add a cogent thought with your response other than "it's my right". Most of us agree that it is a right to own a firearm but does that right extend to possibly endangering others due to lack of training. My general suggestions for training are above, if you agree with training what would your suggestions be for that training.

 

[BigRed]

I would argue there should be no requirement for a license to carry. Thus, the question is moot.

 

[Bigtanker]

As much as I want all who carry to be trained and informed of laws as possible, when you give .gov permission to set the rules, it can always go bad.

 

[COOPADUP]

No disrespect intended here, but this will be interesting.

 

[klausm]

it can always go bad.

it will go bad

 

[Gunmetalgray]

As much as I want all who carry to be trained and informed of laws as possible, when you give .gov permission to set the rules, it can always go bad.

This ^
Our system of checks & balances has been infiltrated & corrupted. It should not be commissioned with additional power.

 

[drillsgt]

This is a spinoff of the thread about the ND causing death at the SPB. I can't count the number of times I chastised people for pointing guns at themselves and others when RSOing. More often than not I was told "it's not loaded", scowled at or complaints logged with managment for disrespecting them (that was the perception) in front of others.. Owning a gun IS a right but handling it in public should require at the very least a basic safety training class and holding a LTCH some sort of simple shooting qualification at a range. This is my opinion but I'm interested in what others think.
What do Y'all think and please add a cogent thought with your response other than "it's my right". Most of us agree that it is a right to own a firearm but does that right extend to possibly endangering others due to lack of training. My general suggestions for training are above, if you agree with training what would your suggestions be for that training.

Training is always good but i'm against any .gov mandated training. For your situation just convince wherever you work at to require at least an NRA basic handgun or whatever course your company offers before anybody can get on the range, problem solved.

 

[BugI02]

I think a person should always be able to act on their perception of a need to carry in the shortest time span possible, we don't know what their situation is and there are numerous cases most are aware of that make the point

The way to insert a safety/training requirement would likely be for the ranges to do something as private business can already impose requirements without giving government more power

Ohio imposes a structured, though simple, firearm safety and legal knowledge course with a range shooting requirement with the whole course totaling 8 hours. It is by no means comprehensive but it does instill some basic knowledge of safe practices early in the process and gives applicants a basic knowledge of legal rules and constraints. I'm torn between thinking it isn't a bad idea and fealty to the idea of constitutional carry as the best regulation environment

I don't know how to reach the ones who fail to see how much more knowledge they should seek. One awesome possibility I would love would be a further training requirement with the reward being a higher tier permit, allowing the same ability to disregard 'no guns' signs with being asked to leave the only consequence of detection, that Indiana already enjoys. That sort of thing is fraught with danger, however, as the ability to set restrictions on 2nd amendment rights can be abused (and has been). Any way to 'encourage' people to seek further training in our imperfect world just enables infringement, and you can't fix stupid

 

[rosejm]

I would rather add a section of 8th grade US History/civics classes to include safe firearm handling practice.

In theory, that means everyone learns how to safely exercise their constitutionally protected right.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I too think the LTCH should be optional.

But I wouldnt be against making them read/sign a sheet with the 4 rules as part of the application process. (along with other stuff like "what goes up, must come down. Dont shoot into the air because you could kill somebody")

But beyond that, No. No requirement. That would set up a way for them to slow walk your application. Like Guy Relford testified the other day in the statehouse. They are refusing to accept any 3rd party fingerprints for the LTCH. And they are currently running a 6 month wait for fingerprinting through their office. Another unconstitutional roadblock.

This is just Marion County being up to their old tricks. Back in the 90s Frank Anderson required the multipart form to be typewritten. HIS requirement, not the ISP. Not smart enough to find a typewriter? No LTCH for you! He literally blacked out the "or handwritten neatly" on the form with a marker and included a whole sheet of instructions that clearly stated if it was handwritten it would not be accepted. The ISP was fine with handwritten.

Imagine adding training to the mix? "sorry, cant get your Larry because you havent had our training. First class is available 26 months from now. "

(edited to reorder the statements. I accidentally made it look like Guy talked about what happened in the 90s. That's my firsthand experience, not his.)

 

[OurDee]

No need for a permit, if it is a right.
No requirements, if it is a right.
I always need more bacon.

 

[KittySlayer]

I would rather add a section of 8th grade US History/civics classes to include safe firearm handling practice.

In theory, that means everyone learns how to safely exercise their constitutionally protected right.

I use this when anti’s are concerned about “the children” when the topic of guns come up. If they are truly concerned about “the children” then they would want every child to know about gun safety.

 

[Mgderf]

Training is always a good idea, done properly of course.
I would love for every firearm owner to get training, but I will always oppose mandated trading of any kind.

 

[flatlander]

Some of the worst gun handling I've ever seen comes from people that say " I was in the military, I know what I'm doing".
It's a right that people should be able to exercise freely . Unfortunately people refuse to admit they don't know what they don't know so we keep seeing these horrific incidents. Be responsible and get trained.

 

[Old Dog]

FATHERS- teach your children well. 'nough said.

 

[jwamplerusa]

I voted NO, for the same reasons as BigRed, BigTanker and others. With that stated however; the change in demographics in the US since 1791 needs to be addressed. As Justice Story stated in the early 1800's in his Commentaries-On-The-Constitution, paragraphs §1000 and 1001, the greatest danger to the Second Amendment is:

"...The right of the citizens to keep, and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist, and triumph over them. And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burthens, to be rid of all regulations. How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights."​

Justice Story's last sentence above was, I believe, prophetic. Especially as the United States tipped from a majority Rural society to a majority Urban society between the world wars. I contend that at that point (based upon the census of 1920), the appropriate action was to begin a requirement for all citizens to be trained in arms as a component of citizenship. In recognition of this, I have been requesting my State legislative representatives to implement some variation of the proposal below for years.

My challenge to you is to author a State law proposal to implement forthwith the following actions, to limit the continued decline of our State and Nation.​

1. All students at schools which receive State government funding must be required to take and pass the current Federal government citizenship test (or a later more difficult test) prior to receiving a diploma. (A watered down version of this was once submitted in 2019, I believe)
   1. The syllabus, coursework, and testing must include reading assignments for the Constitution of the United States of America, selected Federalist Papers, selected portions of Judge Joseph Story's “Commentaries on the Constitution, and finally either the Militia Act of 1792, or the Militia Act of 1903
2. Require all schools which receive State government funding to offer and require a firearms safety course before the High School years, based upon the standard U.S. Military or NRA safety guidelines.​
   1. No editorializing or anti-gun propaganda can be permitted as a component of this instruction.
   2. Allowance can be made for religious or moral conviction objection.
      
3. Require all schools which receive State government funding to offer and require demonstration of firearms marksmanship during the High School years, based upon the standard U.S. Military or NRA marksmanship guidelines.​
   1. The marksmanship training should entail both rimfire and centerfire handgun and rifle proficiency demonstration.
   2. The implementing legislation is to minimize any impediments and should encourage use of existing facilities augmented with increased ventilation and ballistic backstops sufficient to address use of rimfire calibers.
   3. No editorializing or anti-gun propaganda can be permitted as a component of this instruction.
   4. Allowance can be made for religious or moral conviction objection.
      
4. The State of Indiana must keep a record of those students who DO NOT pass the marksmanship demonstration.​
   1. The State must be required to request the Selective Service select those who did not pass the marksmanship demonstration for Selective Service, prior to selection of those citizens who did so, as these persons will require additional training
5. There need to be harsh, even extreme penalties, for persons in government service (schools, child welfare, law enforcement, judiciary) who do not act on evidence of persons who present a danger to the community. See item 6 below, as this was initially written prior to the FedEx active shooter event.​
   1. All to often after the most recent shooting by a deranged individual, we find the person had a long history of threats, law enforcement or academic interaction which strongly suggested the individual was a danger to others. Those who did nothing are as guilty of the atrocity as the shooter and need to be held accountable. (If you need further information, have you staff present you with the history of the Pulse nightclub, Marjory Stoneman, and Dayton shooters among the many for which adequate knowledge of the assailants disturbing behavior was adequately known to utilize our existing laws and judicial system to make them prohibited persons)
6. With all do respect to yourself and Mr. Guy Relford, Indiana's “Red Flag” law and the FedEx facility active shooter event have illuminated one of my abiding concerns over such laws. See item 5 above.​
   1. Contrary to Prosecutor Ryan Mears protestations, the deficiencies with the current law are lack of accountability for Law Enforcement personnel and / or government employees when they do not take action under the current law.
      1. An amendment to the current law should add criminal penalties for any government employee who does not take action on any properly executed initiation of the law's protections. Such a provision if in place would have made Mr. Mears and / or his staff members criminally liable for failure to fully execute the process in the time the statute provides when the identified individual later commits a violent act where in the law would have prevented such an event. The concept here is the same as that wherein a criminal who's associate is killed by a defender is charged with murder.​
   2. There need to be HARSH penalties for false reporting under Indiana's “Red Flag” law.​
      1. There is a real and I believe increasing potential for this law to be weaponized by disgruntled acquantences or spouses, anti-constitution and anti-gun elements of our society. To protect the rights of all citizens, it is critical that adequate penalties be in place to discourage such weaponization of the “Red Flag” law.

I am all to cognizant that it is my and later generations who are responsible for much of the current ills of this nation in regards to educating our youth. I believed our State schools would teach accurate history and convey citizen responsibilities to our youth, as had been conveyed to me.

I was too trusting, and not engaged enough with those in my employ (being paid with my tax dollars). In other words I proved to be a poor manager of MY Government.

I did not recognize the infiltration and subversion of our educational institutions, the reduction in standards of civics education, nor the decline in the expectation that our youth be taught and demonstrated a strong moral behavior standard by those paid by tax dollars to educate our young.

I did not recognize the impact the decline of America's economy, and the two working adult family (in an attempt to maintain or improve upon our parents standard of living) would have upon our children and community.

All I can do now is to try to right those failures and address those ills. That starts with pressing my public servants to address the root causes of our nation's decline, and the resultant effects. I know my efforts are small, but via communications such as this, and evangelization to my associates acquaintenances on these topics I hope to have some tiny impact. If there are enough like myself and many of you, there is a chance the needle portraying the status of these United States can be moved away from "decline" to again toward "ascend".

 

[Expat]

 

[klausm]

I always told my boys that if I was ever looking down the wrong end of their gun the beating would commence, without a spoken word

 

[Cameramonkey]

I voted NO, for the same reasons as BigRed, BigTanker and others. With that stated however; the change in demographics in the US since 1791 needs to be addressed. As Justice Story stated in the early 1800's in his Commentaries-On-The-Constitution, paragraphs §1000 and 1001, the greatest danger to the Second Amendment is:

My challenge to you is to author a State law proposal to implement forthwith the following actions, to limit the continued decline of our State and Nation.​

<snip>​

Looks good except for 3 and 4. Not necessary and a little gratuitous on our part as pro gun folks. EVERYONE doesnt need to demonstrate marksmanship. That is over the top for the masses. Everything else looks pretty good though.

But you know they wont do it because many of those leftist legislators and educators dont believe our founding fathers, documents, or principles are good, and some are actively working to change it.

 

[jbombelli]

Most people don't even know who does what in our government, and their votes do more harm to all of us every time.

With this in mind, I think only those people who hold degrees in either Political.Science or Public Administration, should be able to vote.

You want to speak your mind in public? Get a degree in communications.


I'm sure you can see where this is going.