Should We Help Georgia?

[Paul]

Should the U.S. help Georgia fight off the Russians? Georgia has been a huge allie to the U.S. and had the 3rd highest amount of troops in Iraq just behind us and England. They helped us fight the war on terror and died along side our troops. They have tried to join NATO and that pissed off Russia. They also have a big oil pipe line running through the country. The Russians are now pushing to the capital of Georgia. So, should we help?


If yes, describe how you think we should help. Supplies, troops, bombing, ect.

If no, why?

 

[MilitaryArms]

That's a bit of a nebulous question. I would ask if were to help them, how much help would we offer?

1) No - don't get involved
2) Yes - get involved but only with money and weapons
3) Yes - get involved by offering air support and limited ground support
4) Yes - get involved and fully commit our forces (all out war with Russia)

 

[Bill of Rights]

Should the U.S. help Georgia fight off the Russians? Georgia has been a huge allie to the U.S. and had the 3rd highest amount of troops in Iraq just behind us and England. They helped us fight the war on terror and died along side our troops. They have tried to join NATO and that pissed off Russia. They also have a big oil pipe line running through the country. The Russians are now pushing to the capital of Georgia. So, should we help?

From the phrasing of your question, you clearly think we should. I will not say that we should not do so. I would wonder, however, how thinly our troops should be spread. We have thousands spread across Iraq and Afghanistan; there is talk of Iran, not to mention the myriad of bases across the world. What percentage of Russian troops are stationed outside Russia? Chinese? British? French? OK, never mind French, but still.. an inordinate number of our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines are arguably protecting American interests but are they protecting America herself? Can the sheepdog guard his flock effectively if he is guarding the door to a fox den when there are many foxes around the meadow? It seems to me that our sheepdogs need to be where those they protect are. (And yes, I know that the military is not our only sheepdog; that there are many camouflaged amongst the sheep as well. This board contains not a few.)

I would say that we should protect our interests. Perhaps the question should be from where troops should be withdrawn to redeploy to Georgia if it's decided we should help.

Blessings,
B

 

[MilitaryArms]

I say we help them, but not commit 100% to an all out war with Russia. I would send them weapons, money and some SpecOps but not allow our forces to directly engage Russian forces, only to offer training and strategic guidance.

 

[Paul]

I say we help them, but not commit 100% to an all out war with Russia. I would send them weapons, money and some SpecOps but not allow our forces to directly engage Russian forces, only to offer training and strategic guidance.

that is more what i was getting at. We do not have the ground forces to even go into Georgia. We already have about 100 Americans in Georgia who were helping train Georgian troops.

 

[MilitaryArms]

The other option is to put the onus on Russia. If NATO moves to bring Georgia into the fold, then stations forces around the capital thereby telling the Russian's it's "off limits"... then if Russia attacks NATO forces it will be their actions that spark the conflict.

But honestly, do we really want a war with Russia?

 

[turnandshoot4]

No. They picked a fight with a big kid and now want us to help. I think this behavior is unacceptable. I am not one to shy away from a fight but this isn't ours to fight. What would we do in Russia's position?

 

[DocGlock86]

I would have to say no right now. We are spread to thin right now as it is.

 

[pmpmstrb]

I say let them go. If we lose them we lose them. We can also convert Puerto Rico to keep the state count at 50 so we don't have to change our flags.

 

[DocGlock86]

I say let them go. If we lose them we lose them. We can also convert Puerto Rico to keep the state count at 50 so we don't have to change our flags.

I hope your not seriously thinking this is about the the "state" GA.

 

[bwframe]

Hell yes we should, and I gotta believe we are covertly.

 

[flagtag]

I voted yes - but with reservations.
I believe we should "encourage" NATO to bring Georgia in. And if necessary, help by supplying them. We should encourage other nations to step up and express displeasure toward Russia's illegal actions.
But trying to get NATO to bring Georgia in would be the best - first step. Hopefully, Russia (Putin) will back off.

But, on the other hand, I believe that Putin had planned to invade Georgia for quite some time. I also believe that Putin's "operatives" have been working to get the war started. I firmly believe that Putin has been plotting to get the USSR back together - including ALL the nations that had split from the USSR - and maybe even add a few more. (judging by some of the things he said and did over the last couple of years.)

I don't believe we should send troops in - yet. And hopefully not at all.

But Putin has a plan. And he doesn't care who disapproves of it. (His KGB roots are showing)

 

[BloodEclipse]

But, on the other hand, I believe that Putin had planned to invade Georgia for quite some time. I also believe that Putin's "operatives" have been working to get the war started.

You are correct. This has been brewing for sometime now. This is the best timeline I could find so far.

TIMELINE: Georgia and Russia's worsening relations | Reuters

 

[techres]

I say let them go. If we lose them we lose them. We can also convert Puerto Rico to keep the state count at 50 so we don't have to change our flags.

SIR, YOU ROCK!

I nearly broke my workstation with diet coke over those 3 sentences.

 

[MilitaryArms]

I voted yes - but with reservations.
I believe we should "encourage" NATO to bring Georgia in. And if necessary, help by supplying them. We should encourage other nations to step up and express displeasure toward Russia's illegal actions.
But trying to get NATO to bring Georgia in would be the best - first step. Hopefully, Russia (Putin) will back off.

Yup, I feel pretty much the same way.

Ironically, I was thinking last night about Bush making threats towards Putin about his actions. It's kind of hard to lead by example after we invaded Iraq without any real reason other than we wanted some payback for things that happened 10 years earlier.

 

[BloodEclipse]

The difference between us and Russia is we Don't Stay or Claim the land. We help get the countries back on solid footing and we go home. We had plenty of reasons to invade Iraq and I'm not going to get into that argument in this thread. Georgia is a democracy and needs to be protected. If we don't step up we just give the green light for it to occur again and again.

 

[MilitaryArms]

The difference between us and Russia is we Don't Stay or Claim the land. We help get the countries back on solid footing and we go home. We had plenty of reasons to invade Iraq and I'm not going to get into that argument in this thread.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Our initial actions in Iraq were not based on valid reasons. There is far more evidence of wrong doing by China (stealing our nuclear secrets), North Korea (threaten us regularly and have an active bomb program), Iran (issues threats to us and our allies regularly and has an active bomb program), etc. We're not invading them. Why is that? Just because a country is ruled by a dictator doesn't give us the right to invade them and force a republic on them. If they want it, it's their responsibility to fight for it as we did for ours. They didn't even ask for our help.

Georgia is a democracy and needs to be protected. If we don't step up we just give the green light for it to occur again and again.

I agree. Unlike Iraq, Georgia is a republic by the choice of the people. They have been an ally to us in our war on terror and they have tried to find a peaceful solution with Russia. Putin doesn't want peace, he wants conflict. Thank God Medvedev stepped up this morning and halted the Russian advance into Georgia. Let's hope it sticks.

Meanwhile, we should help our ally. The only reasonable question is "how much" help do we offer?

One thing we can do is tell Russia if they continue to invade their neighbors we will immediately bring the Ukraine into NATO. Russia only has about 140 million people now and the Ukraine is something like 50 million. That's huge to them, and they do NOT want the Ukraine in NATO. The prospect scares the crap out of them. We need to send a clear message that if their aggression continues we'll have no choice but to increase our presence in the region and bring their former satellites into NATO to protect them.

Of course this means we have to trust the other NATO members, many of whom are complete nancies (like France and Germany), will step up militarily if Russia invades a new NATO nation. I already know France won't.

 

[Paul]

I voted yes - but with reservations.
I believe we should "encourage" NATO to bring Georgia in. And if necessary, help by supplying them. We should encourage other nations to step up and express displeasure toward Russia's illegal actions.
But trying to get NATO to bring Georgia in would be the best - first step. Hopefully, Russia (Putin) will back off.

But, on the other hand, I believe that Putin had planned to invade Georgia for quite some time. I also believe that Putin's "operatives" have been working to get the war started. I firmly believe that Putin has been plotting to get the USSR back together - including ALL the nations that had split from the USSR - and maybe even add a few more. (judging by some of the things he said and did over the last couple of years.)

I don't believe we should send troops in - yet. And hopefully not at all.

But Putin has a plan. And he doesn't care who disapproves of it. (His KGB roots are showing)

I agree! I would also push NATO into bringing the Ukraine in also. That is Putin's next target.

 

[techres]

Meanwhile, we should help our ally. The only reasonable question is "how much" help do we offer?

There is also the question of realistic capability to assist. Forget having troops spread all over Asia and the debate over "spread thin".

Focus on the realities of the task of serious assistance:

1. It took over a year to build up the troops to liberate Kuwait. If Russia really wants this battle, we likely cannot build up enough troops to stop them inside of years.
2. As bad as reports are, this is no Yalu River crossing - yet. Russia has moved hundreds of tanks, not tens of thousands. But it could. And it could faster than we could move troops. I.E. better have practiced your amphibious landings and be ready to do Inchon again.
3. Do not expect Russia to respond lightly or within any scope of reason if we put camo'ed troops on the ground in land they feel is theirs and that abuts their territory. We responded strongly to their messing in Cuba, but we were restrained, they would not be.
4. This is partly about oil. The Russians have decided their economic future is based on oil and at today's prices, who can blame them. So, this ain't personal, it's bidness.
5. This is also about pride. The Russians are trying to re-emerge as a world power. They cannot do that in the guerilla war plagued "suicidebomber-istans", but could do it in Georgia. So this is ain't business, it's personal.

So you want to curtail them, sending in troops only plays to their hand. They would get to swamp all of Georgia with troops before we could get 1000 boots on the beach while they claimed they did it because of us. They would push the PR that we were there to get another permanent base for soldiers and oil (which would play to many here and abroad). And they would get the golden opportunity to make us look completely impotent militarily (even if they could only do it because we chose our battle all wrong).

In the end, both we and the Russians are fighting nasty guerilla fights. If we want to also open a conventional one where Russian has all the advantages, then we would simply be handing them a "Return to Superpower Status Card - do not pass go, do not collect $200" and doing that would not be smart.

Squeal and squirm and run the flag of evil Russian imperialism at the UN while quietly helping the Georgians with logistics and C&C as best you can. Then break off the Ukraine. They might take back their little toe, but they would be trading off their 'nads to do it.

 

[MilitaryArms]

1. It took over a year to build up the troops to liberate Kuwait. If Russia really wants this battle, we likely cannot build up enough troops to stop them inside of years.
2. As bad as reports are, this is no Yalu River crossing - yet. Russia has moved hundreds of tanks, not tens of thousands. But it could. And it could faster than we could move troops. I.E. better have practiced your amphibious landings and be ready to do Inchon again.
3. Do not expect Russia to respond lightly or within any scope of reason if we put camo'ed troops on the ground in land they feel is theirs and that abuts their territory. We responded strongly to their messing in Cuba, but we were restrained, they would not be.
4. This is partly about oil. The Russians have decided their economic future is based on oil and at today's prices, who can blame them. So, this ain't personal, it's bidness.
5. This is also about pride. The Russians are trying to re-emerge as a world power. They cannot do that in the guerilla war plagued "suicidebomber-istans", but could do it in Georgia. So this is ain't business, it's personal.

All of this I agree with. A knock down drag out brawl with Russia in their home turf isn't something we should actively pursue. If you check out my other posts in this thread, you'll notice I caution restraint and want to meter very carefully how we get involved.

I'm not even sure offering to fly sorties and to protect their capital with our fighters is wise. If Russia wanted to, they could easily kick our ass in the air before we could move enough resources into the region to take on their very formidable air force. There's not much we can do militarily that's wise or would appear to end well for our forces or interests.

I agree that about the only thing we can do is offer financial and equipment assistance.

The only way we might be able to back Russia down is if Georgia were indoctrinated into NATO over night and all NATO nations sent a loud and clear message "we will defend Georgia". But we all know that won't happen... France and Germany would refuse as they always do and that would show weakness in our alliance... one that Russia would quickly exploit.

We really need new allies.