-1 for Delaware County's Finest

[Mark 1911]

It's one thing to ask for an LTCH, it's something else to pull someone out of line as if he did something wrong, also wrong to tell him to cover it.

 

[GONZO!!!]

Question:

Has anyone here actually told a LEO to "Pound Sand" during a LTCH / OC issue?


How did that work for you ?

 

[Rookie]

No argument from me.

 

[wwdkd]

Actually courts have said that just carrying a gun is not reasonable suspicion to stop someone

 

[Jack Burton]

I still don't buy into it's ok to stop someone because they have a gun on their hip.


That is the same as if they would have stopped me on the way out to check me and make sure I didn't steal something. Same reason cops sit outside of bars at closing time and follow someone. They can't pull them over till they give them reason to. Like I said in the OP I'm not wanting to test the system and be detained longer than flashing the pink. My neighbor the full time sherriff said most full time cops know better because they don't want to get the pound sand answer for stopping someone for no reason.

If you want to remain willfully ignorant of your state laws that is up to you. Don't be surprised when it comes back to bite you, though.

 

[Jack Burton]

Officers can not stop you and demand for ID/LTCH, open carry or not, if they do not have reasonable and articulable suspicion that you have commited, are committing, or about to commit a crime. Period!

you are confused on a number of issues. Let me try to walk you thru some of these so you know better.

Carrying a handgun is a crime according to the Idnana State Code. Anyone who is observed carrying a gun has AT THAT POINT created enough reasonable suspeciion for a policeman to stop them and ask certain questions.

There are mitigating factors that make it a "non crime" to carry a handgun. One is if you yourself are a policeman. Or a military member required in your duty to carry. Or if you have a LICENSE TO CARRY issued by the state or another state that is honored by Indiana.

ANY of these, or several others, gives you a free pass from the law that makes it a crime. There is no obligation in the state law to "conceal". It merely says "to carry." This is why Indiana does not issue a Concealed Carry Permit, or CCW as many people like to carry it.

So, back to the policeman who sees Fred carrying a gun. The policeman has every legal right to stop Fred and ask if there is one of these mitigating factors involved. If there is not, Fred can be arrested for carrying and breaking the law. If there is, the policeman has no further legal obligation to take the stop any past that.

IF Fred has a LTC, he can at that point do one of three things.

1) He can refuse to tell the police he has one. Since he has provided NO mitigating relief from the law the policeman has the right to lawfully arrest him. When it gets to court (or before then) and it is found that Fred did indeed have a LTC the arrest will be dismissed.

2) He can tell the police that he has one but state that he doesn't have it with him. The police can run the record without the actual pink card being present. However, the police is going to need a name and other identifying factors in order to run the check. Since Fred is, as this point, under reasonable suspicion that he is indeed breaking the law the police can simply arrest Fred if he refused to cooperate with an ID, which will eventually get them the ID.

3) Fred can hand the policeman his pink card and that ends the matter right there. UNLESS the policeman has actual, reasonable suspicion that Fred is holding a bogus pink card the police CANNOT take it any further on this issue alone. The fact that the card is easily spoofed, the fact that he could have stolen the card from someone else, the fact that he could have robbed ten banks after he got the card are all immaterial. None of them count as "reasonable suspicion" to the point where the policeman can DEMAND further ID. The policeman can ASK for it... but he cannot demand it. Fred is under no obligation to show any further ID at this point. The pink card is the means and method that the State has provided to ID the legal carriers and that is sufficient for all legal needs. Again, the policeman MUST have specific, reasonable suspicion that Fred is indeed "not Fred" to carry this stop any further -- not just a generalized, "Gee this is too easy to fake."

 

[Jack Burton]

So the fact that a LEO sees me driving my car is a reasonable suspicion of me driving without a license?

It's amazing that we can post 100 times that the SCOTUS ruled that police cannoit ask for a drivers licenses without probably cause yet there always seems to be the 101th person who hasn't heard the news.

 

[Jack Burton]

Actually courts have said that just carrying a gun is not reasonable suspicion to stop someone

This is why you don't trust Internet lawyers.

 

[Mr. Habib]

Actually courts have said that just carrying a gun is not reasonable suspicion to stop someone

True. Courts in jurisdictions with constitutional open carry, like Arizona. Those courts do not have jurisdiction here in Indiana. If we had the ability to open carry
without a license, I would agree with you completely. However, until that happens, like it or not, if you carry here in Indiana, you are guilty until proven
innocent.

 

[KW730]

Officers can not stop you and demand for ID/LTCH, open carry or not, if they do not have reasonable and articulable suspicion that you have commited, are committing, or about to commit a crime. Period!

Correct. However, carrying a firearm in Indiana is a crime. Your license makes you an excepted person. If they spot a handgun, they have the authority to ask for your permission slip, according to Indiana law. It's been stated several times in this thread.

 

[MisterChester]

There was a thread a while back about the IMPD discontinuing the practice of stopping people who are carrying to see if they have an LTCH. While it isn't a law to stop checking, that was how they wanted to proceed.

 

[88GT]

Actually courts have said that just carrying a gun is not reasonable suspicion to stop someone

Would it be a stretch to assume that you didn't actually read through the thread before you posted this?

 

[GaDawg]

lets be clear here the "pound sand" quote came from my neighbor who is a sheriff in the same department. he said he and most of the full time deputies would not stop you without a reason because they dont want the pound sand response.

 

[TTravis]

This is an interesting thread / story about law enforcement abuse of power beyond asking to see LTCH. I am happy to hear you held your ground. Whenever an LEO wants to be an ass, we should remember to get their name so at least they can achieve internet fame. Store video would also be interesting to see. Overall good job with your interaction.

 

[GaDawg]

im hoping my neighbor jazzed him lol

 

[JMoses]

I just can't wait to hear what happens the next to the OP is asked to see his LTCH and tells the officer to pound sand. LOL

 

[jbombelli]

How much will you pay me if an officer asks me for my LTCH and I refuse and I don't get arrested?

 

[JMoses]

Yeah, if you furnish name and DOB, you don't have to show it. Or you can show it after the arrest so it's not filed

 

[jbombelli]

Yeah, if you furnish name and DOB, you don't have to show it. Or you can show it after the arrest so it's not filed

I can also be on my private property and not have to provide squat. Been there, done that.

 

[lonehoosier]

Yeah, if you furnish name and DOB, you don't have to show it. Or you can show it after the arrest so it's not filed

I have been stop twice and just told the LEO my LTCH number. He called it in to verify it and sent me on my way.