12ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Big Bores--

[Merrixs]

I think this is very interesting, but my question is how much of this if any can be safely applied to your standard 12 gage pump like my Mossberg 835?

 

[hubel458]

The stronger plastic case loads will work in the Mossy
like 600gr at 1800, lighter saboted loads faster, with
our slower powder loads. Ie more of a slower powder,
which by the way makes reloading safer and cases last longer.
Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot
section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the
slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower
powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier
so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs
isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore
accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.
This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original
setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried
it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup
seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..
Slug is .629" diameter.

Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with
the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving
nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.

Here is older picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.
Man what nice old guns.

Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

 

[hubel458]

Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
like ones we want to get made for reloading.
They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.
I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should
make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.

Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal
cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show
and magnify difference between the two wad setups..

What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent
weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger
percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.

Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.

Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

 

[hubel458]

Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
high as others who have to set up complete machines.
We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
have similiar design as the ones pictured below
but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.

Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my
585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.

Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
actions like this and great value for no more
than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
smooth barrels.

Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
on nice looking slug gun.Ed

 

[hubel458]

The sabots we are working with, take at least 15 different
58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of
sabot at .733" with all of them in. There are 5 Dixie
Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of.
Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading
slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses.

Examples-58cal (.575"- .578")
Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs
Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights.
Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc.
And they are all good slugs at a saving especially
when folks cast their own.

I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading
suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a
quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.

From the research on sabot patents and testing by various
of our readers, the sabots can't be undersize, or accuracy
at high speeds isn't possible. I get questions about how
to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases
for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need
to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not
fullbore cast....Why; they want lighter for less recoil in
regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper,
they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't
have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs
for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover
a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing
their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive
factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much
more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second,
one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from
a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas.
Behind are Lyman and Lee 58cal molds. Got more coming of
different 58cal weights, clear down to 315gr. My casting
friend will get them and as soon a we get somebody making
the sabot, he can aid the cause by making slugs.
Some of the Lyman and Lee slugs are more streamlined than
modst big bore rifle bullets as you can see in picture.

Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action
we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like
the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup,
an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it,
to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have
setup on NEFs, and CBCs.

Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock,
and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid.
Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like
all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels
and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the
extra weight.

 

[Caleb]

Where can you get a 4 bore and how much do they run?

 

[gunselman]

Wow this is amazing information. Tag for updates.

 

[hubel458]

You'll have to build your own. or pay someone like Colin Stolzer.
I'll have plans to do a falling block one later this year.

Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.
The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the
aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
due the economy.

Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.

4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed

 

[hubel458]

Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder
and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is
shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
straight as possible for accuracy.

Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best
velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight
fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.

Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.

Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch rounds called the
"Lethal" and the "destructor".

5th picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.I think it is rifled
barrels.....Nice beautiful old gun.Ed

 

[hubel458]

I think we found good overall sabot design that will
be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
of slower powder, better velocity with less case
expansion, and more reloads possible.

We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
for penetration until now.. They did very well,
two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once
we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs
compared to short fullbore ones....


Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
on.There are many makers and brands and styles
of molds and weights available.

Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold
like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.

Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
Great looking gun..Ed

 

[hubel458]

Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be
gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
down to 350 gr and less.

Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,
and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on
to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.

In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.
Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom
lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..

Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--
all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.
The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.
Possibilities are really great fun. Ed

 

[hubel458]

Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer.
We are working on it.

Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a
thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first
load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows
great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.

Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
the accuracy.

On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.

 

[saberstar]

Go big or go home?

 

[hubel458]

Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.
Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.
The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in
36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like
butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.
Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip
in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.
This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug
More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.
For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with
deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end
heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..
Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.
I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush
down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of
the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.
Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would
allow it to tip or go off center.

Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and
700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to
50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.

Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the
stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed

 

[Matt52]

I find all this really enteresting. I grew up watching "Under Wild Skies" african hunting show and Tony Makris the host used a Paradox gun on several occasions I believe it was a Westley Richards. Do you have a website or something? Id really like to try something like this in the future I enjoy shooting "odd" guns.

 

[hubel458]

For now just this thread.Later info on a site.

With other scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie
in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate
5 for 5. Going 2000fps.

Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,
10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.
A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with
58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..
And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.
Bertram getting ready to make the last die;
done later this month and will be doing cases then.
Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.
He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as
I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship
by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had
a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a
real good deal..
He will ship whole bulk order to me.
I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.
I'll will get a bunch also, to load for others,
to fill orders, and collectors. Get 50 for 150 bucks,get
100 for 300 bucks, 167 cases for 500 bucks.
I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets
and get it to me and I send them on to him.
I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to
the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.
Want to make the run as big as possible. Got
money ready to go for over 700.
Like to get 3-4 times as many made if possible.Ed

 

[hubel458]

Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again.
Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a
two ball load using .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a
little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot.
Used a fold crimp, 3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled
barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round
balls 285gr each, going about 1900 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds.
Those 58 cal inside Accutip sabots are really versatile.
Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase, lead,
muzzleloading slugs, 2" at 30yds. All loads with plastic x12x
seal and white felt cushion under sabot.
Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25,
and just did one in my longer 700HE. Did a little longer port and
added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel
16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd have a neat 16ga FH....Ed

PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE.
He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run
as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on
first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to
me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved,
no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great bargain
compared to other big bore cases. For if you buy 150 or so you've saved
enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with.
My contact--- gunowner at journey.com
For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countres
make arraingements with Bertram to send cases directly to you.
We can't afford export costs to send cases back out of the US
due to costly permits.and goofy gun laws.............
　
.

 

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two
58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.

Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon,
in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal
bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and
the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also.
The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left
measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.

Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns
just for testing the different style guns, and different loads.
In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting
my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting
8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds.
Hollowbased they act like shotgun slug at short ranges.
Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in
rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels.
Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I
have monoblocked in 585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case
partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel
also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break
action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong.

　
　
And an ultimate big bore from history.ED

　

 

[hubel458]

We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots
soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..
We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run
for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch
this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info
if your interested contact me.
We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums
and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and
58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug
load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and
also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of
commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"
470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.
That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.
Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth
super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.
Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.

Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a
heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28"..
I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just
to show all the uses the case has.

I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.
It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.
I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in
a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed
　

　
　

 

[hubel458]

I found pictures of a factory 12ga over under that
has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with screw
in chokes. Will have pics few days. Don't know
how heavy barrel is yet.

Also will have pictures and test of brass 585HE sent
here. They are 585HE case samples from the first big
run of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.Ed