167 acts of imposed obligations in Scottsburg.

[BehindBlueI's]

Forced giving, like Christmas exchanges or any holiday generated for the sake of consumer sales, is a tax. I avoid them for the most part.

"Forced giving" and ritual predates the very idea of a consumer or an economic market place. It predates money (take a look at studies of tribes in Papua New Guinea as an example). It strengthens societal bonds and reinforces community. Something sadly lacking in the cynical and "fling poo at everything" society of the increasingly urbanized and Internet-centric modern US culture.

 

[foszoe]

Kind act spreads to 167 drivers at Indiana McDonald?s | WANE

At least 10% of INGO will hate me for this... but, you probably already do, so I can take it.


Here it goes...



Stop the smug Ponzi scheme.

These people weren't atruistic, most of them did it solely out of unconscious obligation or a false sense of generosity.

In their mind the money they were going to spend on that slop was already spent by the time they rolled up to the window. So, the cashiers says, "no it's paid for already!" So what do you do? Be a louse and keep the undeserved money and suffer the icy glare of the cashier? For the rest of the day it's her disapproval that'll be ruining your day. Nope, your obligated to take that money (that you had already spent in your mind) and pay for the next unsuspecting victim of this ponzi scheme. Now you can go about your day thinking, "Gee, I'm such a nice person. I committed an act of spontaneous giving!" No you didn't. You got caught up in the smug train and the drive through. Joe Pesci's right - they **** at the drive through, but it's not the restaurant, it's the other customers acting like sheep.Listen, it's great if you want to help someone out and pay for their food - you feel good about yourself and most likely they feel good about getting a free meal - except they're now obligated to pay for someone else's meal... or be a louse.

I'm just asking that before your start, or continue, this chain of smug obligation, you stop and think, "maybe the next guy just wants me to mind my own business."

Or, give that money to someone that needs it; or at least buy them something they aren't already planning on buying for themselves! Seriously people, are you really making life better by paying for the double decaf, gluten free, rootin' tootin' latte for the soccer mom in the brand new Prius behind you?! Maybe you are, maybe she can't see the forest from the trees and you both have fallen into the ruse.

I just wonder how smug people are when they see a letter to the editor in the newspaper thanking, "the kind young couple that paid for our meal at..." Hey, honey! Look we're in the paper for our generosity!

Thankfully this crap hasn't happened to me so I don't know exactly how it works... but what if you pay for chicken sangwich and fries for Grandma driving fifteen year old Cavalier... "Oh bless his heart!", says grandma, "I'm going to continue this generosity and pay for the car behind me..." .... which happens to be a Ford Exterminator loaded up with kids on the way home from rugby practice...



"That'll be $84.32. Pay up, grandma, or we spread the word that your a deadbeat loser."

Have you been gifted with clairvoyance? Judging motives of another person is disturbing.

 

[Alpo]

"Forced giving" and ritual predates the very idea of a consumer or an economic market place. It predates money (take a look at studies of tribes in Papua New Guinea as an example). It strengthens societal bonds and reinforces community. Something sadly lacking in the cynical and "fling poo at everything" society of the increasingly urbanized and Internet-centric modern US culture.

Depends on the country. I've been in Europe for Christmas and the sense of community is strong...but it has little to do with spending.

Does the Papua tribe celebrate Valentines, Mother's, Father's Day, etc. ? Methinks not. Besides, they are a gift economy whereby status is earned with the gifts. Not the same thing at all.

But, if you want to run around naked in the woods with a bone in your nose....please feel free.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Depends on the country. I've been in Europe for Christmas and the sense of community is strong...but it has little to do with spending.

Does the Papua tribe celebrate Valentines, Mother's, Father's Day, etc. ? Methinks not. Besides, they are a gift economy whereby status is earned with the gifts. Not the same thing at all.

But, if you want to run around naked in the woods with a bone in your nose....please feel free.

You're asking if a tribe that developed independently celebrates western holidays? Of course not. They celebrate their own holidays and rituals. That's so self evident I can't even imagine your point in asking.

Of course it's not about spending. How would a societal principal that predates the concept of spending be about spending? Other than time.

What's the point of a "gift economy" in your mind? The cycle of obligation knits the community together. Why is giving a source of prestige if giving is useless?

Giving builds trust and community. The idea that if you're short, you're part of a community that will help you and that incurs the obligation to help them in turn. Helping someone when they aren't short builds that trust and sets the expectation. Hence ritual gift exchange. There is nothing different in the McD's drive through than an exchange of sweet potatoes in the jungle or bone needles on the plains of the US. It's built into us, without a sense of fairness, we can't be social creatures and being social and specialized is one of the main aspects of what being human is.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

You're asking if a tribe that developed independently celebrates western holidays? Of course not. They celebrate their own holidays and rituals. That's so self evident I can't even imagine your point in asking.

Of course it's not about spending. How would a societal principal that predates the concept of spending be about spending? Other than time.

What's the point of a "gift economy" in your mind? The cycle of obligation knits the community together. Why is giving a source of prestige if giving is useless?

Giving builds trust and community. The idea that if you're short, you're part of a community that will help you and that incurs the obligation to help them in turn. Helping someone when they aren't short builds that trust and sets the expectation. Hence ritual gift exchange. There is nothing different in the McD's drive through than an exchange of sweet potatoes in the jungle or bone needles on the plains of the US. It's built into us, without a sense of fairness, we can't be social creatures and being social and specialized is one of the main aspects of what being human is.

Giving does build trust and community, and it's most commonly done within the community. I think the big difference with Americans is that the idea of community is not nearly as well-defined as it is for your Papuans. Many of us live in neighborhoods, while not identifying with our neighbors in the community way.

There is a very definite benefit to altruism within one's community, but it's at best a less definite benefit when applied to those outside one's community.

 

[Alpo]

You're asking if a tribe that developed independently celebrates western holidays? Of course not. They celebrate their own holidays and rituals. That's so self evident I can't even imagine your point in asking.

Of course it's not about spending. How would a societal principal that predates the concept of spending be about spending? Other than time.

What's the point of a "gift economy" in your mind? The cycle of obligation knits the community together. Why is giving a source of prestige if giving is useless?

Giving builds trust and community. The idea that if you're short, you're part of a community that will help you and that incurs the obligation to help them in turn. Helping someone when they aren't short builds that trust and sets the expectation. Hence ritual gift exchange. There is nothing different in the McD's drive through than an exchange of sweet potatoes in the jungle or bone needles on the plains of the US. It's built into us, without a sense of fairness, we can't be social creatures and being social and specialized is one of the main aspects of what being human is.

I'm not certain where you are headed with this. Certainly, neolithic and paleolithic man had customs, tribal and inter-tribal obligations and duties. At a certain point, they also developed religion and language. Just because there was a strong barter/gift economy in the Indus Valley does not mean that I am under any obligation to spend money today on holidays. The logic doesn't follow. These behaviors are not instinctual although a case can be made that as gregarious and social animals, sharing and gifts are part of our nature...but INGO calls that socialism and are traits to be avoided

As I said earlier, I enjoy voluntary giving. I do not enjoy giving on holidays made for us by marketeers and petty capitalists.

 

[oldpink]

ATM must be posting under a pseudonym.

 

[Alpo]

ATM must be posting under a pseudonym.

 

[avboiler11]

this thread...

 

[gregr]

You Christians are so unlike your Christ.

[h=1]Matthew 7King James Version (KJV)[/h] 7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[gregr]

One more reason to avoid a drive through.

I'll be generous in many situations....of my choosing.

Feeding people with the means to feed themselves? Nice, but not necessary and not exactly "when i was hungry, you fed me...".

Exactly...

 

[gregr]

No one here has "paid it forward" at a drive through?

I do it about once a month. Pick up the tab for the person behind me. Don't know, and don't care, if they do it for the next. Fun to see how long they kept this one going. Sure, it was mostly a "game" at that point, but at least it was a feel-good thing. The world needs more of that.

I understand your sentiment, and to a point, I agree. But truthfully, what the world needs more of is revival. When people are headed for an eternity in hell become they haven`t accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah, a free burger at the drive-thru is meaningless and a distraction.

 

[foszoe]

I understand your sentiment, and to a point, I agree. But truthfully, what the world needs more of is revival. When people are headed for an eternity in hell become they haven`t accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah, a free burger at the drive-thru is meaningless and a distraction.

Matthew 25:35.

People order food usually because they are hungry.

Are you willing to say you know for certain the eternal fate of the people behind you? Feeding the hungry is meaningful to Christ and places the person doing so on his right.

 

[foszoe]

One more reason to avoid a drive through.

I'll be generous in many situations....of my choosing.

Feeding people with the means to feed themselves? Nice, but not necessary and not exactly "when i was hungry, you fed me...".

You seem to be quoting from Matthew 25, if not where are you quoting from? I see no requirement to judge the need before giving in that text.

 

[Alpo]

[h=1]Matthew 7King James Version (KJV)[/h] 7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Except, Matthew was writing for fellow Jews....and I'm not Jewish.

 

[foszoe]

Except, Matthew was writing for fellow Jews....and I'm not Jewish.

He was writing to a Jewish audience but Matthew 5 to 7 are the sermon on the mount and from Matthew 4:25 it should be reasonable to conclude that the teaching was being proclaimed to both Jews and Gentiles.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Giving does build trust and community, and it's most commonly done within the community. I think the big difference with Americans is that the idea of community is not nearly as well-defined as it is for your Papuans. Many of us live in neighborhoods, while not identifying with our neighbors in the community way.

There is a very definite benefit to altruism within one's community, but it's at best a less definite benefit when applied to those outside one's community.

Scottsburg was a town of roughly 3k when I lived there. It had a pretty strong sense of community. I've been gone for a long time, not sure if the same is true or not today. I definitely notice the small town vs large city attitudes, though. I suspect because it's easier to be anonymous in a big city, sort of like online. I had a friend who once pointed out that response times for emergency services and economic assistance may play into this as well. In a rural area, you're more likely to need your neighbors.

Regardless, the point stands. Remember the sense of community immediately post-9/11? We can come together when we want.

I'm not certain where you are headed with this.

Simply to counter the notion that it's nothing more than "a tax" or some scheme to part you from your money. If nothing else, those folks were part of something bigger than themselves for a little bit. Maybe that will inspire more giving or empathy, maybe it won't, but I fail to see why it's a subject of animosity and cynicism. If you don't want to participate, don't.

My partner routinely pays for random elderly couples when we go out. I donate to more of what you'd consider standard charities. Both have their place.

 

[Alpo]

He was writing to a Jewish audience but Matthew 5 to 7 are the sermon on the mount and from Matthew 4:25 it should be reasonable to conclude that the teaching was being proclaimed to both Jews and Gentiles.

I'm not saying the beatitudes aren't worthy of note in and of themselves. But, as you agree, Matt was writing to a different audience. And he wasn't very successful according to rabbis I know. They thought he copied from Isaiah.

 

[phylodog]

I went through a Jimmy John's drive through this afternoon for a #9 on wheat with hot peppers, if you haven't had one you're seriously missing out. Fortunately (apparently) I was the only customer inside or out judging by the lack of other vehicles. I paid for my own food, received it, drove home and ate it, it was yummy. All the while I didn't care what other people were doing or why, I didn't compare myself to anyone else or question anyone else's motives. It was great, like most other days of my life in this regard.

 

[JettaKnight]

Have you been gifted with clairvoyance? Judging motives of another person is disturbing.

Not the motives, per se, but the motivation. Cognitive psychology.

Matthew 25:35.

People order food usually because they are hungry.

Are you willing to say you know for certain the eternal fate of the people behind you? Feeding the hungry is meaningful to Christ and places the person doing so on his right.

I'll assume this is purple... they're hungry because it's lunch time and the line is long, not because they can't get food.




Did anyone see the episodes of South Park where Randy Marsh is at Whole Foods?
[video=youtube;aKsOwJ8AGWo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKsOwJ8AGWo[/video]