35 Viper chambered AR - Indiana deer legal-what's your opinion?

[aaron580]

Not sure what you mean by "get nutrient" but it sounds like my question must have struck a sore spot for some reason, by your post. So far, there are two folks who carried the M16/M4 for a living.

Still trying to figure out why this is relevant for a thread about an expensive "hunting rifle"....

 

[fireball168]

There is a guy on this site that is selling a 358 Gremlin for around $900 for a upper. It is made from a WSSM case.

I designed the 358 Gremlin in 2008, it is based on the 6.5 Grendel/PPC/x39 case.

There has never been a sale of a 358 Gremlin from BFG come anywhere near $900, even with hundreds of pieces of brass and reloading dies.

Barrels, bolts, dies and brass if the customer wants - that way they can assemble themselves any way they want.

Bolt barrels outsell the AR barrels 3/1 or more.

 

[Black Star]

Still trying to figure out why this is relevant for a thread about an expensive "hunting rifle"....

Good Question and here's the answer:

It's interesting the variety of responses coming from this forum on the topic of an AR for hunting Deer in Indiana. The best aspect of the AR platform is its widely versatile configuration possibilities, which are as varied as each individual's personal opinion and preferences. One of the best comments was, " there are many proven combinations. Unfortunately you basically ignored all of them". To this we say thank you, that is exactly what we did.

As for those folks who insist that it has to have a longer barrel, we agree that we should offer those as well. For the record, the barrel pictured, functions exceptionally well and has taken several deer outside of 200 yards very efficiently.

Depending where you are located in Indiana and also who you ask, you will get different opinions on preferred barrel length for the ideal AR hunting setup. Down here along the Ohio River valley and its tributaries, we do have flood plain terrain where the 300 yard shot does present itself. But, for the most part, shots range from up close to maybe 80 yards. When we went to put the Model 6 M435 together, we asked for input from our local AR enthusiast customers. Around 90% of these folks are either active duty, retired or prior US Military who carried the M4. Every one of them stated that, if given the choice between a 20 or 16 inch upper, they'd much rather carry a 16 that could take game out to 200 yards along with a collapsable butt stock. The lighter weight, better balance and maneuverability of this setup is more suitable for the deer hunting conditions we have locally. This configuration is also pretty close to what they have spent countless hours, days and months humping around.

This is why we also asked the RKI AR enthusiasts here on INGO, who had provided us with input / feedback if they had carried the M16/M4. There seems to be a completely different opinion about the Model 6 M435 on this thread, than that of our local customers, which is very interesting. One is not right, wrong or better than the other, they are just different.

Didn't mean to slam all slug gun hunters. Should have said, "spray and pray lead slingers" whatever firearm they use.

Thanks again for the diverse and varied input and feedback.

 

[Whitsettd8]

As an AR hunter ".458" here's my input outside what everyone else has commented on some of it will be redundant
Font post has gotta go and replaced with a low pro or adjustable block.
Hand guards my preference are free float prefer carbon to cut weight
Barrel 16 inches should be more than fine I doubt that load would benefit much from 18-20 inches. The brake has to go any standard brake/hider would work.
The cartridge itself is my biggest turn off. If I have to take the time to reload or pay 3.50 a shot there are better ballistic options out there. If you can get SAAMI certified and I can buy easily then I'm interested. At this point not only are people buying into your $1250 entry level gun they are buying into you as a company since you provide the ammo.

I personally don't think it will be long before restrictions are lifted for Indiana hunting.

 

[richardraw316]

Not sure what you mean by "get nutrient" but it sounds like my question must have struck a sore spot for some reason, by your post. So far, there are two folks who carried the M16/M4 for a living.

I think I was going for butt hurt, but phone auto corrects. No you did not strike a cord. You asked for everyone's opinion, not formal soldiers, everybody. Once you got alot of opinions you didn't like you try to play them like they don't matter because are not apart of "boys" club. It might shock you, but their are plenty of experts who have never served. Once again.

 

[Black Star]

I think I was going for butt hurt, but phone auto corrects. No you did not strike a cord. You asked for everyone's opinion, not formal soldiers, everybody. Once you got alot of opinions you didn't like you try to play them like they don't matter because are not apart of "boys" club. It might shock you, but their are plenty of experts who have never served. Once again.

We have no idea where you get the "opinions we didn't like" concept. Posting on a forum like this is the main reason for getting opinions. We never implied that soldiers are more qualified "experts" with this platform. You should re-read the previous posts in this string which lay that out. From your response, it sounds like you have a big ol' chip on your shoulder about the military for some reason or another. Also, you should move along to some other thread you can troll. You are doing nothing here but stirring up crap on this one

 

[Double T]

I did not serve. I hunt. I am specifically wondering what your ballistics will be out of this setup for a round that I'm not currently interested in, in a platform I'm familiar with but not the chambering.

I can get awesome ballistics, and suppress a 300 blk and get awesome ballistics within my kill range with a 300blk. I have no idea what the effective range is on your round, and no idea on whether I'd even be willing to use the round.

I care more about what the cartridge does, moreso than what's shooting it. 300blk hunting "pistol" would also make me one hell of a HD weapon. Well, at least it's easier to convince the wife on it

 

[IndyGunworks]

Good Question and here's the answer:

It's interesting the variety of responses coming from this forum on the topic of an AR for hunting Deer in Indiana. The best aspect of the AR platform is its widely versatile configuration possibilities, which are as varied as each individual's personal opinion and preferences. One of the best comments was, " there are many proven combinations. Unfortunately you basically ignored all of them". To this we say thank you, that is exactly what we did.

As for those folks who insist that it has to have a longer barrel, we agree that we should offer those as well. For the record, the barrel pictured, functions exceptionally well and has taken several deer outside of 200 yards very efficiently.

Depending where you are located in Indiana and also who you ask, you will get different opinions on preferred barrel length for the ideal AR hunting setup. Down here along the Ohio River valley and its tributaries, we do have flood plain terrain where the 300 yard shot does present itself. But, for the most part, shots range from up close to maybe 80 yards. When we went to put the Model 6 M435 together, we asked for input from our local AR enthusiast customers. Around 90% of these folks are either active duty, retired or prior US Military who carried the M4. Every one of them stated that, if given the choice between a 20 or 16 inch upper, they'd much rather carry a 16 that could take game out to 200 yards along with a collapsable butt stock. The lighter weight, better balance and maneuverability of this setup is more suitable for the deer hunting conditions we have locally. This configuration is also pretty close to what they have spent countless hours, days and months humping around.

This is why we also asked the RKI AR enthusiasts here on INGO, who had provided us with input / feedback if they had carried the M16/M4. There seems to be a completely different opinion about the Model 6 M435 on this thread, than that of our local customers, which is very interesting. One is not right, wrong or better than the other, they are just different.

Didn't mean to slam all slug gun hunters. Should have said, "spray and pray lead slingers" whatever firearm they use.

Thanks again for the diverse and varied input and feedback.

this post addresses different parts of the state having different opinions about barrel length because of different styles of hunting, but it does not address the question of why it matters which of the posters in this thread have served... I am still waiting on an answer to that question.

 

[SaintsNSinners]

I carried an AR in the employ of Uncle Sam and I still carry one from time to time here in the civilian world... You know what my answer is? I would rather have an established 30 caliber round that I know Is going to go from point A to point B at X velocity with Y Energy and will drop by X amount at Z Range.

I've been in situations where 3 more inches or a proper caliber would have been a godsend.

You know why?

Because when I am shooting at a deer I intend to put it down with the 1st shot and not have to assume I can get it with a few mystery round that have only been shot to 70 yards, may or may not go boom and who's ballistics is of questionable integrty and or quality..

Not only that but I prefer to buy my ammo commercially from any near by store I can; and not from some mystery wizard charging me an arm and a leg for Crocodile Meth quality rounds..... It might go bang or it might eat you arm.

The drug dealer, Meth maker business principle is not going to work in the gun world. They want known reliable ammo at affordable prices.

Only Mall Ninja's and fools want UTG and RGuns at Noveske prices

 

[in625shooter]

I carried an AR in the employ of Uncle Sam and I still carry one from time to time here in the civilian world... You know what my answer is? I would rather have an established 30 caliber round that I know Is going to go from point A to point B at X velocity with Y Energy and will drop by X amount at Z Range.

I've been in situations where 3 more inches or a proper caliber would have been a godsend.

You know why?

Because when I am shooting at a deer I intend to put it down with the 1st shot and not have to assume I can get it with a few mystery round that have only been shot to 70 yards, may or may not go boom and who's ballistics is of questionable integrty and or quality..

Not only that but I prefer to buy my ammo commercially from any near by store I can; and not from some mystery wizard charging me an arm and a leg for Crocodile Meth quality rounds..... It might go bang or it might eat you arm.

The drug dealer, Meth maker business principle is not going to work in the gun world. They want known reliable ammo at affordable prices.

Only Mall Ninja's and fools want UTG and RGuns at Noveske prices

^^THIS is pretty much summing it up. My whole thing is it seems like folks here (in this state)are in love with the idea of hunting with rifles. Which is fine if any of the new cartridges gave real rifle (270, 30 06 etc) performance. BUT They Don't. So with this 35 Viper you are paying 2 times more than you do for a bolt gun or rifled shotgun (even an 1187) and at $3.50 a round paying as much if not more for each round than for a sabot slug and with no real gain in performance, range etc.

Also while some like to tinker with reloading and etc the majority of hunters like to be able to go into a store and find a box of what they use. 35 viper, 358 Hoosier or whatever other catchy named rounds came out are not readily available on most shelves.
Most if they want a rifle are more than happy with a 44 mag or similar rifle or they trim the cases of 35 REM or 45 70 Brass and use a gun and readily available components however that doesn't change the fact their range is really not extended past the range of a rifles slug barrel or in line muzzle loader with were available long before the first rifle rules went into effect.

Hope it works out but I just don't see it taking off for those reasons.

 

[Black Star]

I am specifically wondering what your ballistics will be out of this setup for a round that I'm not currently interested in, in a platform I'm familiar with but not the chambering.

I can get awesome ballistics, and suppress a 300 blk and get awesome ballistics within my kill range with a 300blk. I have no idea what the effective range is on your round, and no idea on whether I'd even be willing to use the round.

.35 Viper
Cartridge length 1.625 inches
180 gr sp; 1565 ft lbs @ 100 yards
Muzzle velocity apprx 2325 fps
Max effective range on deer size 200 yds

 

[42769vette]

their range is really not extended past the range of a rifles slug barrel or in line muzzle loader with were available long before the first rifle rules went into effect.

Not true. I hunted for years with a muzzleloader with a max range of 300yds (pretty fair poke with a muzzleloader)

Now I hunt with a 358 BFG, and have a max range of 400. If I had put the time in my 358 that I did with my muzzleloader I have no doubt my max range with the 358 would be further than 400 yds. I came up with my perfect 300 yd muzzleloader dope in 100 rounds prior to season each year. I came up with my perfect 300yd dope with my 358 in about 15 rounds.

A lot of people (myself included) load their own rounds, so ammo being at Walmart doesn't even figure into my thinking. I make ammo cheaper than your going to buy a 12 ga slug in most case's. In my 358 BFG I have about 125 per round. The wildcat offerings are not right for everyone, thats a fact, but they are right for a lot of us.

 

[DownByTheTracks]

What barrel length is this data coming from? What is your chamber pressure?

.35 Viper
Cartridge length 1.625 inches
180 gr sp; 1565 ft lbs @ 100 yards
Muzzle velocity apprx 2325 fps
Max effective range on deer size 200 yds

 

[Double T]

What barrel length is this data coming from? What is your chamber pressure?


[/FONT][/FONT]

Doesn't matter much to me though. 300blk does similar in a smaller package with everything I already have except a barrel.

 

[42769vette]

Doesn't matter much to me though. 300blk does similar in a smaller package with everything I already have except a barrel.

The major disadvantage to the BLK is it has to be in a pistol configuration.

 

[Double T]

The major disadvantage to the BLK is it has to be in a pistol configuration.

Not a HUGE deterrent to me though. Not a huge fan of hunting with a 12ga slug

 

[42769vette]

Not a HUGE deterrent to me though. Not a huge fan of hunting with a 12ga slug

Thats why we have so many options. What works great for you, is a deal breaker for me, and vise versa.

 

[IndyGunworks]

What barrel length is this data coming from? What is your chamber pressure?


[/FONT][/FONT]

I would like to know this as well.

 

[IndyGunworks]

But i got a feeling we will continue to not get any REAL answers to the questions that have been asked.

 

[Hookeye]

If marketing the AR rifles for hunters I'd hope for better than reg GI trigger.
Can do spring change and slight mod for usable, but that reg GI stuff flat out sucks.
I don't think one needs a $200+ trigger (although those can be pretty sweet).

FWIW, in ref to past posts..............I kill a few deer now and then, free float not necessary, and my current rifle wears a 16.25" bbl.
The problem I have with it is not bbl length, but the bbl length and action stacked up................it's a TC Contender so there's no real action length. That means the muzzle is about 4" closer, and the balance of the rifle not as far out front as I like.

I corrected the latter by adding weight to the fore-end.

Back to AR...............if wanting to hang a Harris on the front, for maybe a kid shooting it................like others have stated a longer handguard (mid length or longer ) would give some real estate for comfy hand placement behind the bipod.

BTW I've taken trees as rests, my shots did not go off the mark. I don't lean my barrel in the fork or against the trunk, instead place my hand there, and make sure my body position allows for proper followthough. if it's gonna be a funky type of shot I just try for body position and offhand it. For Pete's sake its a deer, not a chipmunk, if you can't drill 'em in the vitals offhand to 150 your rifle is probably not the problem.