44 mag reloading question

[dpbstevens]

I am curious if I can use the 444 marlin projectile instead of the 44 magnum projectile. I am loading for deer hunting and am having issues finding the polymer tipped hornadys in 44 magnum but have found them in the 444 marlin. the diameter and weight are the same. any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[6mm Shoot]

In a 444 the bullet is made tougher to with stand the 3000 F.P.S. that the 444 starts out at. I would think you might want to talk with the people that made the bullet and find out what F.P.S. is was designed to expand at. I am not saying that it will not work, just that you might not get the expansion out of a 44 that you would get out of the 444.

 

[Leadeye]

I've fired 265 grain Hornady FP in both my Blackhawk and S&W. Other than heavy recoil with stout loads I didn't see an issue, shoot all cast now, a variety of shapes and weights.

 

[mac45]

Agree with 6mm Shoot about the jackets and potential expansion problems if you're shooting the .44 Mag in a handgun.
Less of an issue if you're using a rifle.
The only other thing that comes to mind, is are the cannelures in the same place?
Not a big deal, but if you end up having to seat deeper, just back your load off and work up again.

 

[Hookeye]

Stiffer bullet might be preferable. 2 holes lets more red out
If one is worried that it might be too stiff, they could send it through a shoulder to try and open it up.
And that might be a decent thing too...........esp if the neighbor doesn't let you recover deer that make it over the fence.

Handgun expansion.............I use 180 and 200s and run 'em with max charges of WW296. No I haven't thwacked any bruiser bucks, but on the does and smaller bucks they whistle right through on double lung shots. I've even tried the old scalloped Rem 240's in sabots from a .50 cal MZ..................same thing, little hole in and out.

The do bleed out OK, some trot a few steps, some go maybe 50 yards and flop over.

Dunno if expansion is a good thing in a .44 mag.

Only one deer with .44 rifle, the 236 gr hard jacket Norma JHP clackety clacked through timber after smashing my doe's shoulder/spine.

 

[Broom_jm]

In a 444 the bullet is made tougher to with stand the 3000 F.P.S. that the 444 starts out at. I would think you might want to talk with the people that made the bullet and find out what F.P.S. is was designed to expand at. I am not saying that it will not work, just that you might not get the expansion out of a 44 that you would get out of the 444.

I'm not sure if the 265gr FTX bullet is made any tougher, and it d*** sure doesn't start out anywhere NEAR 3,000fps, even from a 444 Marlin! It's well under 2,500fps, AAMOF. This bullet has two cannelures and can be used from a 44RM, but you'll either have problems feeding from a lever action, or you'll be sacrificing case capacity and MV. You don't mention what type of gun you're shooting, which would make a difference in your options.

Far better to go down to a 200gr bullet, like the XTP, than go up in weight. The gummy-tip of the FTX bullets makes little difference in ballistics in 44 caliber. Also, expansion isn't really necessary, so long as you have good penetration.

 

[kludge]

In the "things that make you go hmmmm" department...

225gr FTX has a BC of .150

200gr XTP has a BC of .170

240gr XTP has a BC of .205

The FTX was a godsend for a few file calibers, especially at mach 2, but the hype doesn't cross over to pistol bullets. Not that I've ever had a bad Hornady bullet, and not that they won't do an admirable job...

But when you can get a lighter bullet AND a better BC something is amiss. Not to mention you will spend less money loading XTP's.

But to answer your question, No, I wouldn't use the .44 Marlin FTX in a .44 Mag. Also I don't see where you are finding the same weight, as far as I know, and I'm looking at the Hornady catalog right now, is the 225gr FTX os for the .44 Mag and 265gr FTX is for the .444.

Coupled with lower BC, less powder space (Hornday recommends you trim the brass), and ruining you brass for loads with standard bullets, that's three strikes.

 

[dpbstevens]

Sorry I forgot to mention what gun. I will be using a CVA scout single shot 44 magnum rifle. But thank you everyone for all the input!

 

[kludge]

The length of the rifle will bump the MV ~200fps, give or take. Also being a rifle you won't need to trim your brass. But the FTX bullet in question was probably designed for expansion at 1600-2200fps (just a guess). A .44 Mag load will probably max out at less than 1600 fps.

But you can always email Hornady and tell them your plans ans ask if they would recommend that bullet.

 

[sbcman]

Good advice has been given for the bullet in question. I'm just offering my data of a 225gr ftx stoked with Lil'Gun from a Marlin 1894: fps @ 1788

Hornady factory 225gr ftx peg out at 1835fps from the same gun.

The 265 will obviously be a little lower and there is the issue of bullet construction that I can't offer input on. But, really, there's not many 44 rounds that won't handle a whitetail nicely expansion/construction/bc or lack thereof.

To the question of BC, I don't know why but the ftx is by far the most accurate round from my Marlin 1894. I know it shouldn't be that way, but it is. It's kind of just one of the mysteries of the 44 round I guess. On paper it doesn't always seem like it should do what it actually does in real life.

 

[6mm Shoot]

Broom_jm I stand corrected. I didn't check my reloading books I just took a guys word for what he has told me he was getting with 180 gr bullets. I guess he don't know what he is talking about. I will have to tell him that the great Broom_jm has spoken and that isn't doable.

 

[Broom_jm]

Broom_jm I stand corrected. I didn't check my reloading books I just took a guys word for what he has told me he was getting with 180 gr bullets. I guess he don't know what he is talking about. I will have to tell him that the great Broom_jm has spoken and that isn't doable.

3,000fps with a 180gr .429" might be doable, but not with a 444 Marlin. You'd have to neck down a 458 WM, or something along those lines.

 

[6mm Shoot]

Once more you are not getting it. He claims he is getting it. I trust him a lot more than I do you. I will stand by him. I know you have been wrong.

 

[Broom_jm]

Factory velocity of a 240gr bullet from the 444 Marlin is right around 2,350fps. If your "guy" claims he's getting 650fps more than that, from 180gr bullets, then you go right on believing him.

Don't ever let logic, common sense, or science get in the way of what velocity some guy says he's getting from a given cartridge/bullet combination...cuz they never exaggerate.

Even if someone is pushing the limits of safe reloading to get that kind of velocity from a 180gr .429" bullet...what's the point? It's not like it would be good for anything but paper or varmints at relatively short range.

 

[45fan]

Factory velocity of a 240gr bullet from the 444 Marlin is right around 2,350fps. If your "guy" claims he's getting 650fps more than that, from 180gr bullets, then you go right on believing him.

Don't ever let logic, common sense, or science get in the way of what velocity some guy says he's getting from a given cartridge/bullet combination...cuz they never exaggerate.

Even if someone is pushing the limits of safe reloading to get that kind of velocity from a 180gr .429" bullet...what's the point? It's not like it would be good for anything but paper or varmints at relatively short range.

[h=3]BULLET WEIGHT200 GR. BAR XFB[/h]Starting Loads
Maximum Loads

Manufacturer

Powder
Bullet Diam.​

C.O.L.
​

Grs.

Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure
​

Grs.

Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure
​

Hodgdon

H335
.429"​

2.550"​

53.0

2,080
27,800 CUP​

56.0

2,215
33,800 CUP​

Hodgdon

Benchmark
.429"​

2.550"​

50.0

2,040
27,600 CUP​

54.0

2,212
35,800 CUP​

Hodgdon

H322
.429"​

2.550"​

50.0

2,139
30,200 CUP​

52.0C

2,206
33,600 CUP​

IMR

IMR 4198
.429"​

2.550"​

42.6

2,171
31,800 CUP​

47.3C

2,396
40,300 CUP​

Hodgdon

H4198
.429"​

2.550"​

46.0

2,309
34,400 CUP​

51.2C

2,566
42,900 CUP

​

Perhaps this MIGHT convince the doubters that you COULD be correct, Broom_jm. The lightest bullet listed in Hodgdon's load data was a 200 grain projectile, and the fasted they list a 200 grain bullet going is 2566 FPS. It doesn't take too much deduction to realize that someone claiming 3000 FPS (with a bullet that is only 20 grains lighter) is either mistaken, blowing smoke up someones butt, or doing something that is terribly unsafe and irresponsible.

 

[Broom_jm]

I could quote how much pressure QL suggests would be required to drive a 180gr bullet out of a 444 Marlin at 3,000fps, but that won't convince 6mm Shoot-his-mouth-off, so I won't bother. Suffice to say that it's about 50% higher than SAAMI MAP.

 

[phatgemi]

Not to hijack the thread too bad, but the 265g hornandy really shines in the .445SM!