45-50 Info All In One Place

[Jack Ryan]

Can the mods combine these two or if you see a thread on this wild cat just post a link in this thread and don't bump the illigimate child to the top so if any real information comes out we can find it.

Would any of these people who claim to be shooting this care to actually post useful information other than hear say and he said they said some one was doing it.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ding/54536-legal_deer_cartridge_or_not-2.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ding_45-70_cartridge_cut_down_to_1_625_a.html

I've been eyeballing my own 45-70 and this is making some sense so I'm going to start collecting info and maybe give it a try.

 

[IndyGunworks]

have you talked to fireball168 i would almost bet on it that he has done testing with this round and has all the information you are looking for

 

[Jack Ryan]

No, all I've done is read those two threads and start searching the internet for information I can gather all in one place to study for a day or two to see what I can at least get a temporary head start with out re-inventing the wheel if some one has already done it.

 

[Hank in Indiana]

I wrote a few of the posts. What info that hasn't already been discussed are you in need of.

 

[fireball168]

Approach with caution.

The biggest problem is, like most everything, manufacturing variation.

The earlier threads on this made me cringe, here's why:

I made Cerrosafe castings of Ruger #1's, Handi-Rifles, Marlin 1895's and a few imported and US made Rolling Block replicas and recent Miroku (Winchester/Browning) High Walls.

All had significant variation in chamber size.

The Marlin's - both 45-70 and 450 Marlin were the most generous and were fairly consistent.

The Ruger's, Handi-Rifles and most of the Rolling Blocks/Winchester High Walls had fairly tight chambers, but lots of differences in the rate of case taper as well as the throat and chamber to throat junction (overall case length and the taper/angle at the junction).

When you knock off .480" of case length, the case walls get thicker. Comparing the chamber castings to the outside loaded dimensions of the shortened case - left .0025" or slightly less in some cases. A little closer than I'd care to be on this setup, especially with the case taper and projectile OD variation.

Brass prep - Full length size first using your 45-70/450 Marlin dies. A 458 SOCOM die set will generally do the work on the "new" neck for sizing, expanding and seating.

Accuracy varies widely, with the Marlin's fairly consistently performing the worst -likely due to having the most extreme cartridge to throat misalignment. Finding brass with the thickest rims you can (generally Winchester) helped.

Jacket shaving at the chamber to throat junction was present in all the rifles, with some being extreme.

Pressure variations were all over the place, ES was all over the place - and as far as I'm concerned, the accuracy isn't any better than a decent slug gun(if that).

If you're just wanting to screw around with a rifle you already own, make some careful measurements and start slow.

Dedicated barrels aren't that expensive - if there is something you want to build, I generally will participate in the cost of the reamer if it is something I find even remotely interesting.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I wrote a few of the posts. What info that hasn't already been discussed are you in need of.

What bullet and powder combinations have you already tried and the results.

Pictures of targets with the bullet type, weight, range, powder type and charge weight would be handy so they aren't duplicated over and over would all be more handy than just "I've shot this. It's pretty good. Do you guys think it's a legal to hunt deer with it?"

To be honest I have some doubts about a guy who claims to have done all the work to develope and test a wildcat for deer hunting and then acts like he doesn't even know if it's legal to hunt deer with it.

 

[Splagt]

.45-50 issues

Thank you, Fireball, for your well researched and thoughtful post. You clarified issues I had not thought about. Like Jack, I have been looking at the round, but am far more cautious about just throwing a load together.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I've edited fireball's post down to just the partst that concern me as I'm a "one job at a time type of guy" and this is starting to sound like more than it's worth to me and yes, thank you for sharing the specifics of what you've learned.

Approach with caution.

The biggest problem is, like most everything, manufacturing variation.

The earlier threads on this made me cringe, here's why:

I made Cerrosafe castings of Handi-Rifles.

All had significant variation in chamber size.

The Handi-Rifles had fairly tight chambers, but lots of differences in the rate of case taper as well as the throat and chamber to throat junction (overall case length and the taper/angle at the junction).

I measured the outside case dimensions of a fired case from my Handi rifle and the taper in just that first half inch increases from .483 to .513 . This is not an exact measurement but it tells me the chamber has AT LEAST that much taper in the length I need to take off the case to be legal. It looks like most of the thin part of the case wall is intended to compensate for bullet seating and cutting that off would result in a bulge in the case wall from what you've discovered is the thicker case walls.

When you knock off .480" of case length, the case walls get thicker. Comparing the chamber castings to the outside loaded dimensions of the shortened case - left .0025" or slightly less in some cases. A little closer than I'd care to be on this setup, especially with the case taper and projectile OD variation.

This is making me nervous to.

Brass prep - Full length size first using your 45-70/450 Marlin dies. A 458 SOCOM die set will generally do the work on the "new" neck for sizing, expanding and seating.

Accuracy varies widely. Finding brass with the thickest rims you can (generally Winchester) helped.

All my brass is RP so this is throwing another damper on the project.

In particular how did it look out of the single shots or even better the Handi rifle if you tested it?

Jacket shaving at the chamber to throat junction was present in all the rifles, with some being extreme.

Pressure variations were all over the place, ES was all over the place - and as far as I'm concerned, the accuracy isn't any better than a decent slug gun(if that).

Now that is what really matters and your are killing my enthusiasm now.

If you're just wanting to screw around with a rifle you already own, make some careful measurements and start slow.

Now I'm going to think about the whole project a little longer.

What kind of velocity were you getting with these and how heavy of bullets?

 

[Hank in Indiana]

I've been shooting this cartridge for a year and a half. When you cut .480" off the cartridge the brass remains the same thickness in Starline brass. Because the case is tapered the neck has to be resized or the bullet is too loose. After annealing, I resize the neck with a 45 acp die. There is no bulge. I don't know about throat shaving. I see no evidence and the bullet groups 2-3 min. In my experience, velocity deviations accure before pressure signs occure. 5 shots through the chrony indicated a deviation of 14 fps. My vel averages 1450fps. I would like it a little faster but I only can eat 2 deer a year. For 2 shots a year I'm satisfied. I didn't cast the chamber because I don't care what the chamber looks like only that bullet maintains 3" @ 100.

 

[Jack Ryan]

When you knock off .480" of case length, the case walls get thicker. Comparing the chamber castings to the outside loaded dimensions of the shortened case - left .0025" or slightly less in some cases. A little closer than I'd care to be on this setup, especially with the case taper and projectile OD variation.

Did you try reaming the neck walls?

 

[Jack Ryan]

I've been shooting this cartridge for a year and a half. When you cut .480" off the cartridge the brass remains the same thickness in Starline brass. Because the case is tapered the neck has to be resized or the bullet is too loose. After annealing, I resize the neck with a 45 acp die. There is no bulge. I don't know about throat shaving. I see no evidence and the bullet groups 2-3 min. In my experience, velocity deviations accure before pressure signs occure. 5 shots through the chrony indicated a deviation of 14 fps. My vel averages 1450fps. I would like it a little faster but I only can eat 2 deer a year. For 2 shots a year I'm satisfied. I didn't cast the chamber because I don't care what the chamber looks like only that bullet maintains 3" @ 100.

That's great Hank.

I deleted irrelevant and flippant comments I made earlier.

 

[fireball168]

I didn't cast the chamber because I don't care what the chamber looks like only that bullet maintains 3" @ 100.

Again, as I have told you before, our experiences are obviously different.

I value my upper torso and appendanges enough to spend $20 on a pound of Cerrosafe to ensure I'm safe in doing something. I would strongly recommend anyone considering this to do the same. All you need is a heat source that will take you to 170F, a cleaning rod and tight patch to plug the barrel forward of the chamber throat.

Personally, if I wanted to shoot 3" groups, I'd take a shotgun. But that's just me.



Jack - I didn't consider neck reaming, although it would have only taken a couple of seconds to run the boring bar in when I was trimming the cases on the lathe.

I figured if the chamber was that tight to begin with, I was a little nervous turning somebody loose with a handful of rifle specific brass when only a couple of the guys were doing the loading for several.


I don't know how many of these guys are still hunting with these, we did all this playing around two summers ago when the regulation changed. Haven't heard much about it until these threads started popping up.


It is unfortunate that 50-70's aren't more common.

 

[Hank in Indiana]

No, The case walls did not get thicker.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I think I'm just going to put my rifle efforts in to my 44 mag if I use a rifle this year other than my Hawken.

 

[84VETTE]

Hate to bring up a 2 year old thread but is any body planning on doing this with 1.8" cases next year. I think it might be something I would like to try.

 

[hammer24]

This idea intrigues me. I have been looking into the 44 Mad Max round as well. The 44 Mad Max is the Marlin 444 shortened to 1.8". Fireball would probably know more, but it seems the cases need fireformed, trimmed and neck reamed. This round shoots .44 bullets, I'm kinda eyeballing the Hornady 265 gr. FTXs though.