454 Casull/Raging Bull shredded jacket

[gixer454]

Ok, I have a question for all you seasoned reloaders. Have you ever seen a bullet do this in a revolver? Notice the jacket shaved off on the top side of the barrel in the pictures below:

Here is my load data:

I am using 250 Hornady XTP bullets, (not XTP MAG), 28.0 grains of AA No. 9, CCI 400 Primers with a C.O.L. of 1.700. I developed this load ten years ago for my first Raging Bull (which was stolen) and I never had a single problem. Now I have purchased a second Raging Bull and I have started reloading again, using the same load data that I had ten years ago. I have read posts that say the 250gr XTP is not made for 454 Casull pressures. Here is a link sharing the same load data again:

454 Casull Load Data - Handloads.Com=

SO here is my question: Is this load data that I have incorrect? Is there a better, economical bullet to be be shooting? Keep in mind, I love shooting this but I have no intention of paying $35 for 50 freakin bullets, I will back the load down and shoot cheaper bullets if I have too, but I don't want to.
Could the bullet jackets coming off like this be caused by the cylinder of the gun and not the loads? This gun shoots pretty accurate, BUT it has left some copper on the top of the barrel in the same spot three times now. I am thinking it is the gun and not the load since I have shot this load in another gun and a friend of mine also shot this load through his RB ten years ago and never had an issue. I have considered trying it one more time and marking the cylinder with numbers to see if it is the same chamber that causes the copper jacket to come off.

Thoughts?

 

[kludge]

Freedom Arms has a "warning" of sorts on their web site about jacketed bullets in the .454.

The 250gr XTP is a .45 Colt bullet. I've heard of people using it very successfully in saboted muzzleloaders up to 1500fps and beyond, or in rifles/single shot pistols without issue.

However, the forcing cone will put additional stress on the jacket, and FA warns about this issue. The soft jacket (compared to the XTP-Mag) will allow more obturation at the forcing cone. Here's how I imagine it... the powder starts to burn and pushes the bullet out of the case and then it hits the forcing cone and gets "stuck" or at least slowed down there momentarily, meanwhile the pressure is building up behind it... the force makes the base of the bullet expand, kind of like pushing your thumb on a pencil eraser, as the front of the bullet is starting to be engraved by the rifling. A bullet with a "harder" jacket will not be smushed at the forcing cone as much as a softer bullet.

Is this what is happening in your gun? That's a harder question to answer. Are the chambers correctly aligned to the barrel? That's a question for a gunsmith.

 

[JB75]

Lee Modern reloading 2nd. edition says xtp are a little longer and there for there is less case capacity. It lists never exceed as 28.0 grains. I load 300 grain speer gold dot using cci 400 primers and #9 powder using lee charge tables and have had no problems. I would try a slightly reduced load to see if it helps.

 

[Chefcook]

Your cylinder and barrel are not in sync... Your pistol should probably go to a gunsmith...

 

[gixer454]

Your cylinder and barrel are not in sync... Your pistol should probably go to a gunsmith...

Headed there today...can't have the Bull out of commision!


Thanks for your input guys!

 

[rimfire_crazed]

Definitely looks like a hardware problem.

 

[Aszerigan]

Your cylinder and barrel are not in sync... Your pistol should probably go to a gunsmith...

This. Get your gun checked, and be glad you only left a little copper on your barrel.

 

[gixer454]

This. Get your gun checked, and be glad you only left a little copper on your barrel.[/QUOTE


Took it to gunsmith today, looks like the cylinder is out of time. It doesn't lock up correctly when the hammer is cocked. I will be sending it to Taurus. Monday.

 

[bigedp51]

Out of time or a timing problem with the cylinder would cause lead or jacketed material to scrape off left or right of the barrel forcing cone. Your jacketed material is top dead center and it isn't a timing problem. Checking timing consists of placing a tight fitting rod down the barrel and checking to see if it hits the sides (left or right) of the cylinder during lock up.

Again your jacketed material is at the 12:00 position and this only could happen if the cylinder is loose and free to move up and down causing the cylinder to tilt upward. (only happens to old worn out revolvers with a bad crane)

More lead and jacketed material will build up at the 12:00 barrel position at the top of the frame because the escaping gasses are stopped by the top strap of the revolver. (and not blasted off the forcing cone escaping left, right or downward.

Please remember "anyone" can hang out a sign that says Gunsmith but the sign doesn't mean he has the training or the qualifications to diagnose problems.

In my opinion kludge above is more on tract with your problem than your "gunsmith" is. On a Smith and Wesson type lock up when squeezing the trigger after dropping the hammer. The paw should be at full extension and the cylinder held tightly in position. With the trigger released only the locking bolt is holding the cylinder loosely in position. A worn ratchet or paw is what causes timing problems and they show up left and right (rotationally) with the cylinder.

YOU need to look your revolver over and see how much "wiggle room" the cylinder actually has. Clean the jacketed material off the forcing cone and shoot a bullet suitable for the velocities you are shooting and see if the problem still exists.

Please note "spitting lead" at the forcing cone is nothing new, and all you have to do is look at a .22 revolver and you will see plenty of lead stuck on the top strap.

Read and "know thy gun". and find some harder bullets that don't compress when kicked in the a$$.

I shoot .312 pistol bullets for case forming and plinking with my .303 Enfield rifles, if loaded too hot you could blow the lead core out of the bullet and have the outer jacket stuck in the bore. Know your bullet design limitations meaning velosity and pressures, some bullets don't like getting kicked hard in the backside.

 

[gixer454]

Thank you for your comments, I appreciate them. Here's where I stand:

1. I need to have a "nice" gunsmith look at this thing and tell me what he thinks. The guy I took it to yesterday was a (insert choice foul name here) and I will never go back to his facility again. I think the forcing cone could use some polishing, but I am a toolmaker and an engineer and not a gunsmith so I want a second opinion. I don't think the cylinder has too much slop, looks like it will move back from the forcing cone about .004". The gun is definetly not worn out, whoever owned it before I did hardly shot it. As far as out of time, without making a rod to match the inside diameter of the barrel and trying it, I don't know if it matches up or not. I can find out but I would rather borrow a tool from a gunsmith instead of making one on the lathe.

2. I know my loads are backed off from "full strength" to compensate for the softer bullet. Tough *****, I am going to pull the bullets and start over using 240gr XTP MAG bullets. I am going to go by the Hornady reloading manual, 5th addition.

AA No. 9, Max load 32.6gr, COL 1.745, using CCI 400 Primers(book says Federal 205). I will start at 29.4 grains and go up in groups of ten shots and 0.6 grain increments.

Any objections?

What Gunsmith should I take this gun to? I live in Logansport, so I don't really want to drive to southern Indiana if I can avoid it, but I will if I have to!
What bullet puller should I get? I don't like the kinetic hammer type, I would prefer to get a collet type. These rounds will be hard to pull, they have a substantial crimp. RCBS or Hornady? I like the looks of both and they are close in price.

 

[bigedp51]

gixer454

I'm not an expert or a gunsmith but I'm 60 years old and I'm no stranger to revolvers and I have worked on a few Smith & Wessons in my time. I have also had bad luck with local gunsmiths who I will call amateur blacksmiths and shade tree mechanics. If I have a problem I can't fix I send the firearm back to the company who made it and they would be the "experts".

From your photos I think you do NOT have a problem with your revolver, it looks like a problem with your reloads and too high of pressure and velocity for the bullets you are shooting.

Below I have modified your photo, the red lines start at the pivot point or the center line of where your cylinder rotates. Please notice your buildup on the forcing cone or rear of your barrel is between 10:00 and 2:00. The rest of the rear of your barrel is free of buildup because it has been "blasted" off by high speed gasses. The build up between 10:00 and 2:00 is caused by the top strap blocking the flow of escaping gasses and the metal stuck to the top of the barrel. The yellow arrows represent where buildup would occur with cylinder timing errors. (left and right of rotational center)

1. Take a close look at the rear of your barrel with a magnifying glass, is the metal on the barrel copper or brass?

2. Clean the metal off the barrel and shoot some factory loaded ammunition and see if you have the same problem.

3. 97% of all errors are human errors and only 3% are actual mechanical failures. (Murphy's Law and if it ain't broke don't fix it)

NOTE: The very same problem you are having will happen if you are shooting cast lead bullets too fast without a gas check. The lead will buildup in the same place and I learned just like you are that some bullets don't like being kicked hard in the back side.

In the military errors like this are called "SNAFU" - Situation Normal, All F*cked Up

 

[gixer454]

Thank you.

I cleaned the gun this morning, the metal is definetly copper. I am going to stop and get some factory ammo tomorrow and shoot it again.

 

[booey50]

was this the first time you shot it??? First time with the reloads??? If it is not why on earth would it start doing this now, Maybe just one bad bullet out of the lot? A suggestion on bullet type since you do not want to shoot expensive bullets for plinking, use rainier bullets that are the same weight and they even make HP for the same price...I was looking up prices today for them and you can get 1000 bullets for just over 100 bucks, not bad for plinking.

 

[gixer454]

was this the first time you shot it??? First time with the reloads??? If it is not why on earth would it start doing this now, Maybe just one bad bullet out of the lot? A suggestion on bullet type since you do not want to shoot expensive bullets for plinking, use rainier bullets that are the same weight and they even make HP for the same price...I was looking up prices today for them and you can get 1000 bullets for just over 100 bucks, not bad for plinking.

Booey, I developed this load 10 yrs ago for my first Raging Bull and never had an issue. That gun was stolen during a messy divorce and I recently bought the replacement Raging Bull. I have tried the same load through this second Bull and this is the third time that I have seen the copper. I know I am pushing the XTP bullets to the extreme so I am going to pull the 175 bullets I have loaded now and I am going to reload with 240gr XTP/Mag. I am also going to start reloading 45 LC for this since I will have 175 pulled 250gr XTP's to shoot up!

 

[04FXSTS]

A few years back I e-mailed Hornady asking about the 250gr XTP and 240gr XTP-MAG. The information I got back was not to use the 250gr XTP in the 454Casull. It was designed for the 45Colt round and pressures. Jim.

 

[bigedp51]

gixer454

As per kludge's earlier posting and right on the money as to "why" you are having your problem.

From Freedom Arms website (bottom of homepage) "454 Reloading Data" -- notes/tips at the very end of the article; http://freedomarms.com/

TIP #4: AFTER REFERRING TO YOUR FAVORITE RELOADING MANUAL. An important fact to remember while loading above 1400 F.P.S.. The construction of the bullet is very important. The intent of the final loaded round is also important, and needs to be considered also. Most commercially made pistol bullets available today are designed for expansion at velocities below 1400 F.P.S. Using bullets above this velocity results in poor accuracy, because the bullets can not withstand the higher pressures generated at these higher velocities. The deformation of the bullets base when fired results in poor accuracy. The higher velocities also cause bullet jacket separation and bullet weight loss, during uncontrolled expansion. When the pressure is high enough the jacket could separate from the bullet in the cylinder, or in flight.

ALSO ANOTHER IMPORTANT FACT IS, THE FASTER THE VELOCITY AND THE SOFTER THE BULLET, THE QUICKER THE FORCING CONE AREA IN THE BARREL WILL WEAR OUT. NEVER EXCEED THE MANUFACTURER'S RECOMMENDATIONS FOR VELOCITY MAXIMUMS!

 

[gixer454]

I have purchased a bullet puller and collet, I am going to pull all the ammo I have and load the pulled bullets up in the small amout of 45 Long Colt brass that I have and call it plinking ammo! I have 3 boxes of 240gr XTP/MAG on order.