.45ACP 230 grain

[cbseniour]

Here's the question, I was looking at a thread which asked what was the best personal defense round in a handgun.
I often carry a 1911A1 and keep 230grain hardball in it. It seems to me that the slow heavy .45 slug isn't going to expand much so what is the sense of using a hollow point. If you hit it or him with a .45 he is likely to go down or at least get out of Dodge.
Your thoughts?

 

[teddy12b]

My preference in handgun calibers comes from a lot of research I did on bear hunting. The guys who go after big bears generally use slow moving heavy for caliber bullets that are very wide. Lots of 44mag, 444marlin, 450 marlin, 45/70 etc for big bears, because it's close and a heavy bullets do nasty things up close. Wider bullets make wider holes and let blood out and air in quicker and the fatty tissue doesn't fill the hole as easily.

Bears and personal defense are no where near apples to apples, but lessons can be learned and applied to both if look for them. In my opinion I don't see why a 230gr FMJ would be bad out of a 45acp. Lots of GI's used them with positive results.

With that being said the ammo available for the 9mm today pretty much wipes out any or most of the advantages of the 45acp. I carry 9mm's, but I've got a 1911 on reserve order too so in my heart there's room for both. There are some hot loaded nasty 45acp rounds out there though that make some improvements over the regular 230gr ball ammo. Ask yourself this, if you're life was in jepardy wouldn't you have rather spent another $5 on the ammo that's in your mag and know that it's the best stuff out there for doing what you need to do right then and there? While not completely needed, why wouldn't you want to give yourself every little dirty nasty advantage that you could in a life/death situation.

 

[Armchair Operator]

When I carry my P220 I have it loaded with 230gr FMJ's. When it comes to big and slow bullets FMJ is just as good, especially in the winter when everyone wears multiple layers.

 

[Spinaltapls1]

I really like those guns

45 post to go


I like to go big and slow i really dont want the bullet to go thur somebody and hit the person behind them. i use hollow points and load them light i figure if im being attacked there going to be close.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Depends on where that piece of weapon is being used. My 1911 in the home is loaded with a quality JHP (specifics do not matter too much, as long as all the magazines are uniform in their loading and it meets the required penetration and barrier situations).

For out and about, particularly around autobodies, flat faced (truncated cone) 230 gr FMJ. You get the best of both worlds (to a degree). It's flat metplat will cut more tissue than RN, less deflection against auto glass. But, make sure your weapon can feed them reliably.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

A quality defensive load is designed to expand at the velocities it is likely to see. The softest of the metal, the scoring, etc.

Even if a hollowpoint doesn't expand, so what? At that point its going to mimic an FMJ round, so you haven't lost anything. Might as well give the bullet the chance to expand, after all you carry a .45 because you want bigger holes, right?

I use Golden Sabers in my Sig P220.

 

[Double T]

I only carry JHP's, regardless of caliber. No matter what, an FMJ is not going to expand, and won't transfer the energy to the tissues. Resulting in much greater chance of pass through.

 

[cosermann]

Modern 45 JHPs are designed to expand at speed. Shouldn't be an issue if your barrel is 4"ish or longer. I'll take the bigger hole if I can get it, and if it doesn't expand it's still as good as FMJ. So, what's not to like?

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

 

[Leo]

I had to put down our family dog due to health issues. It was a pretty good size dog, part Chow. A shot to the top of the head using 230 gr hardball went all the way through and into the ground. The bullet I dug out of the wet dirt had almost no deformation of any kind.

 

[Erich]

My big concern with .45 ACP hardball is overpenetration. I've worked on cases in which bullets have traveled through their intended targets and hit unintended people. I don't ever want to be one of those, so I use JHPs (+P SXT 230-grainers, for the most part) when I'm in town. (Modern .45 ACP JHPs do indeed expand at the velocities for which they're designed.) Ball rounds also don't damage a lot of meat - you're better off with a flat point of some sort to make a permanent hole . . . something else JHPs do better than ball. (A big-name pathologist ballistics expert our office hired for a shooting case told me that he can't tell the difference between the wound tracks left by .38, 9mm, .40 or .45 ball - and he's done thousands of autopsies of handgun killings.)

Up Bear Canyon behind the house - well, sometimes I run 255-grain LSWCs at 900 fps from my .45 ACPs (my Rugers are good for that - both the semiauto or the single-action revolver) . . . guess it depends on where you're using them and what you're using them against. Ball is generally not my choice, though.

 

[O'Shark]

My R1 loves to eat 230gr RN FMJ but it'll choke on flat point bullets. The Speer Gold Dot bullets are excellent hollowpoints and their shape allows them to feed like a RN. My R1 has functioned 100% on both factory and reloaded Gold Dots. I see no reason to use anything else for carry ammo.

 

[Gee223]

45 post to go


I like to go big and slow i really dont want the bullet to go thur somebody and hit the person behind them. i use hollow points and load them light i figure if im being attacked there going to be close.

I load my own too, but be careful with that. I try to approximate a factory loading. Mine are pretty close to Hornady custom. I do this because the slower bullets move, the less likely they are to expand. You might actually get more penetration because of no expansion.

 

[Bigc177]

I also use 230 gr. FMJ ball ammo for my 1911. I've tried Critical Defense, and some other JHP ammo, but always find myself going back to the standard FMJ.

 

[Hohn]

My preference in handgun calibers comes from a lot of research I did on bear hunting. The guys who go after big bears generally use slow moving heavy for caliber bullets that are very wide. Lots of 44mag, 444marlin, 450 marlin, 45/70 etc for big bears, because it's close and a heavy bullets do nasty things up close. Wider bullets make wider holes and let blood out and air in quicker and the fatty tissue doesn't fill the hole as easily.

So having the BG bleed out in 30 seconds instead of 45 seconds is an advantage, I agree. But I think we're hoping for incapacitation, right? 30 sec is still enough time to do serious damage.


FBI testing with JHP bullets actually showed that slower rounds penetrate farther than faster moving rounds in the same caliber. This is likely due to the opening rate being higher with higher velocity. So on one hand the energy dump is quicker, but the overall penetration is less.

A .45 JHP is a pretty deep penetrating round, even with the modern loads that open up to make huge starbursts.

Since penetration is the only real advantage of FMJ over JHP, I'd think that if the JHP meet sufficient penetration, then I'd have a strong argument for JHP.

When the FBI tested the .45 against the 9mm and 10mm-lite loads in the late 80s (the testing the resulted in the .40SW), the .45 ACP achieved 'minimum' penetration 92.5% of the time.

The FBI considered 12" the minimum acceptable penetration in the gel block after going through various barriers.

I'd think that if you can get 12" penetration after going through a windshield and 4 layers of denim, then you have enough penetration.

For my money, I'd be running a 230gr HST or Ranger-T.


JH

 

[88E30M50]

I carry Gold Dots in my .45s. FMJ will work, but with the availability and advantages of a modern hollow point bullet, why not go with the best. I am guessing I'll never have to pull my gun in anger, but if I do, I want whatever advantage I can get.

 

[cbseniour]

My preference in handgun calibers comes from a lot of research I did on bear hunting. The guys who go after big bears generally use slow moving heavy for caliber bullets that are very wide. Lots of 44mag, 444marlin, 450 marlin, 45/70 etc for big bears, because it's close and a heavy bullets do nasty things up close. Wider bullets make wider holes and let blood out and air in quicker and the fatty tissue doesn't fill the hole as easily.

Bears and personal defense are no where near apples to apples, but lessons can be learned and applied to both if look for them. In my opinion I don't see why a 230gr FMJ would be bad out of a 45acp. Lots of GI's used them with positive results.

With that being said the ammo available for the 9mm today pretty much wipes out any or most of the advantages of the 45acp. I carry 9mm's, but I've got a 1911 on reserve order too so in my heart there's room for both. There are some hot loaded nasty 45acp rounds out there though that make some improvements over the regular 230gr ball ammo. Ask yourself this, if you're life was in jepardy wouldn't you have rather spent another $5 on the ammo that's in your mag and know that it's the best stuff out there for doing what you need to do right then and there? While not completely needed, why wouldn't you want to give yourself every little dirty nasty advantage that you could in a life/death situation.

Thanks for the thoughtful presentation of your research. I'll probably stay with my 1911 only because I love the guns but you answered questions I have thought about for years .

 

[cbseniour]

THANKS

Thanks to you all for a great discussion.

 

[Compuvette]

So having the BG bleed out in 30 seconds instead of 45 seconds is an advantage, I agree. But I think we're hoping for incapacitation, right? 30 sec is still enough time to do serious damage.


FBI testing with JHP bullets actually showed that slower rounds penetrate farther than faster moving rounds in the same caliber. This is likely due to the opening rate being higher with higher velocity. So on one hand the energy dump is quicker, but the overall penetration is less.

A .45 JHP is a pretty deep penetrating round, even with the modern loads that open up to make huge starbursts.

Since penetration is the only real advantage of FMJ over JHP, I'd think that if the JHP meet sufficient penetration, then I'd have a strong argument for JHP.

When the FBI tested the .45 against the 9mm and 10mm-lite loads in the late 80s (the testing the resulted in the .40SW), the .45 ACP achieved 'minimum' penetration 92.5% of the time.

The FBI considered 12" the minimum acceptable penetration in the gel block after going through various barriers.

I'd think that if you can get 12" penetration after going through a windshield and 4 layers of denim, then you have enough penetration.

For my money, I'd be running a 230gr HST or Ranger-T.


JH

This. Yes, FMJ will and does work but a quality hollow point (Ranger, HST, DPX) works better. Might just be 5% better, but since it's my life or the life of my loved ones on the line I'll take that 5%.

There has been a significant amount of research done on bullet performance in the last 20 years. It would be silly to not take advantage of that when it comes to stopping bad guys. I would highly suggest checking out the "recommended self defense ammo" link presented above. The list is based on the work of some of the most highly respected people in the field.

 

[neuro01]

I carry 230gr Ranger-T in my mag. Both backup mags contain 230gr FMJ's. I guess it's the best of both worlds.

 

[Sedanman]

I carry Gold Dots in my .45s. FMJ will work, but with the availability and advantages of a modern hollow point bullet, why not go with the best. I am guessing I'll never have to pull my gun in anger, but if I do, I want whatever advantage I can get.

I agree 100%. I also carry Speer Gold Dots for the same reasons listed above.