7.62mm Rifle to REPLACE M4 Carbine

[BehindBlueI's]

Maybe we never have should have left the 30-06 behind....

Modern GI ceramic plates stop penetrator core .30-06. (ESAPI plates, I think)

 

[Brad69]

Too late for me to address this just worked about 48 hrs straight.
Let me send an email or two I will get us an answer on WTF is up!

BBI is correct on the plates as usual!

 

[Thor]

I'm sure whatever the real reason is...is not really being released in the solicitation. It probably has something to do with physics. Physics the .556 can't achieve no matter how much the fan boys pout about it.

I say forget the half measures and just go back to the .45-70!

 

[natdscott]

I'm sure whatever the real reason is...is not really being released in the solicitation.

Indeed. 100% agreement from me, and unless there are policy makers and government arms scientists on this forum speaking openly about what is going on--at risk to their careers, if not more--then I'd gues NOBODY here is "in the boat" of informed individuals.

I say forget the half measures and just go back to the .45-70!

I guess you take your call sign seriously?!

hehehe... the .45-70 did work pretty okay for what it was intended to do at the time it was employed.

-Nate

 

[Thor]

[/SIZE] hehehe... the .45-70 did work pretty okay for what it was intended to do at the time it was employed. -Nate

Yeah, it was/is a hammer. I know the Spanish were very impressed (read terrified) by the Gatling Gun crews in Cuba. Sure, go ahead, take cover...we'll wait; then we will chew your fort to the ground.

 

[mcapo]

Modern GI ceramic plates stop penetrator core .30-06. (ESAPI plates, I think)

So....what is a penetrable round for all modern body armor in a realistic platform with equal or better ammo carrying capacities than 5.56? Can't have 50 bmg service rifles for everyone...

 

[Trigger Time]

Modern GI ceramic plates stop penetrator core .30-06. (ESAPI plates, I think)

Yep and multiple hits from it too

 

[Trigger Time]

Reading some posts it's funny how the government or political propaganda machine from the vietnam war era is still going strong in the minds of today's American citizen that thinks we lost or mutualy withdrew because of the M16 and it's round. Wrong. We lost because of politicians not letting the military do it's damn job and politicians have done it in every conflict since. I hope it changes with Trump and he releases the beast to do it's job. We could have easily won the Vietnam war. We could easily win any war even with Russia and or China and North Korea.
The 5.56 round and the m16 varients that fire it are plenty capable and I'll gladly use it anytime.

 

[SSGSAD]

The .308 had it's turn as did a lot of prior cartridges and calibers. I'm NOT arguing FOR another 762.
I'd like to see a new military caliber that's light and performs better than what we've been running.
Having used BOTH the 556 and 7.62x51 I'll take the 762 all day long over the 556.
I didn't like humping the M14 and ammo but I didn't like carrying the M16 into the doo doo even more.
I didn't want to hump the M60 either

THIS right here, is WISDOM !!!!!

 

[Thor]

I didn't want to hump the M60 either

I loved to carry the -60 just because of what I got to do when I got there...not on like 60 klik marches, but you know...on a 60 Klik march I'll take a .45 in a shoulder holster all day long.

 

[Thor]

Reading some posts it's funny how the government or political propaganda machine from the vietnam war era is still going strong in the minds of today's American citizen that thinks we lost or mutualy withdrew because of the M16 and it's round. Wrong. We lost because of politicians not letting the military do it's damn job and politicians have done it in every conflict since. I hope it changes with Trump and he releases the beast to do it's job. We could have easily won the Vietnam war. We could easily win any war even with Russia and or China and North Korea.
The 5.56 round and the m16 varients that fire it are plenty capable and I'll gladly use it anytime.

Point of order...we did not lose the VN war. We withdrew our forces after the signing of the Paris Peace Accords. The NV violated that treaty and our congress abandoned the SV by not providing the support they promised when it was signed. We could have avoided all that by defeating NV altogether but that option was denied us as you note.

 

[Brad69]

Ok

Got a response!
Looks like the Army is looking for a replacement for the 5.56 and the M4 and M249 the caliber is negotiable 6.5 creedmore 264 USA ect.
The platform is negotiable as well.
If the sky would part and miracles would be granted the new caliber would cover the GPMG but that's still kinda in the air.
Lots of smart guys worried about body armor both current and future.
The whole NATO thing is kinda out the window.
Still in the testing stages.
nothing Follows at this time!

Wth is 264 USA?

 

[halfmileharry]

New rifle, bigger bullets: Inside the Army's plan to ditch the M4 and 5.56

 

[avboiler11]

The US Army Marksmanship Unit's .264 USA - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog

Looks like a UberGrendel, or a 6.5x47 Lapua with a PPC case head optimized for 107/123 class bullets.

 

[mcapo]

To add to the above reference; here is an article that has some ballistic tables from the same site.

Modern Intermediate Calibers 021: The US Army Marksmanship Unit's .264 USA - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog

Just like every other caliber thread that starts on here (including a recent 6.5 v .270 thread by myself); "one size fits all" does not exist. Unless you go with something like the FN 5.7; seems hard to put something downrange with enough velocity to defeat body armor without "excessive" recoil or cartridge weight/size?

 

[avboiler11]

A new "pointed" 123gr SMK with its 0.272 G7 BC @ 2650fps from a 16.7" barrel would, assuming 500' ASL elevation, 59F, 29.92" pressure and 0% humidity would have the following ballistics:

600yds: 4.4mil drop, 1.3mil drift, 1758fps, and 844ft/lb energy
1000 yards: 10.3mil, 2.5mil drift, 1263fps, and 435ft/lb energy.

Compare this to M316 Mod 0 from a 20" M110, which uses a 175gr SMK with 0.243 G7 BC @ 2550fps

600yds: 5.0mil drop, 1.5mil drift, 1585fps, 977ft/lb energy
1000 yards: 12.4mil drop, 3.1mil drift, 1082fps, 455ft/lb

And compare with Mk262 Mod 1 using a 77gr SMK @ 0.190 G7 from a 20" 5.56 @ 2850fps:

600yd: 4.3mil drop, 1.8mil drift, 1575fps, 424ft/lb


Sure, the average engagement is probably much shorter than 600yds...and the 264 USA (hilariously based on an extended Soviet 7.62x39 case) lags the 7.62x51's energy by 15% @ 600 yards...but the weapon system could be much lighter and shorter, with ammo lighter and easier to carry, with noticeably less recoil. Use the Berger 130gr Tactical Hybrid in place of the 123gr SMK and even with less velocity the energy delta narrows at 600 and flips at 1000.

Which is to say, a new weapon system capable of using such a chambering would be a better mousetrap in likely every regard (imagine a 24" M2010 ESR with a 142 SMK or 140gr Berger Hybrid around 2700fps, also able to take standard issue ammo) and therefore likely would never happen.

 

[two70]

While these discussions on what cartridge the military should use are interesting, the bottom line is that one cartridge that meets all needs well simply doesn't exist because many of those needs are conflicting. A cartridge large and powerful enough to perform well at long range is going to incur a penalty in increased weight(of both rifle and ammo), reduced ammo load, and increased recoil that reduces it's effectiveness at short range where most combat occurs. IMO, it is a bass ackwards strategy to attempt to equip every soldier to handle less common long range combat situations(that is what DMRs, artillery, and air power are for) to the detriment of the more common short range combat. Trade offs need to be made to balance these conflicting needs instead of jumping from one extreme to the other based on different situations. To that end, a relatively small cased cartridge of some caliber from .243 to .277 with a middle weight (for caliber) bullet would probably do that best.

 

[natdscott]

...a new weapon system...would be a better mousetrap in likely every regard...and therefore likely would never happen.

hehehe..

...a relatively small cased cartridge of some caliber from .243 to .277 with a middle weight (for caliber) bullet would probably do that best.

That's what is in discussion here.

-Nate

 

[two70]

That's what is in discussion here.

-Nate

Not exactly. If the here you are referring to is INGO much of the discussion seems to be about .30 cal in a large case(ie 7.62x51) vs. the 5.56. If the here is the military they, or at least most of the example cartridges being referenced are also of the 7.62x51 size. Both INGO and the military seems to be fixated on relatively heavy for caliber bullets.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

So....what is a penetrable round for all modern body armor in a realistic platform with equal or better ammo carrying capacities than 5.56? Can't have 50 bmg service rifles for everyone...

I don't know. Modern armor is very impressive.