A realistic prespective on Hand Guns in general and in brief.

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  • handgun

    Master
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    1   0   0
    Apr 1, 2012
    1,735
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    Central part of This state
    I will first start off with hello, If my handle on here does not give away my real passion when it comes to guns, it may be a lost cause.

    I would like to start with a very harsh reality check. It doesn't matter which company's name is on the side of your gun first and fore most. All Manufactures have Guns that have to go back for repairs, because something just wasn't right when it left the building. Well all can agree this is a known fact.

    While some hand guns have their perks and pluses others do not. Say X company is known for its longevity in parts and rarely has an issue. Where say Y company has been known on model X not to feed certain ammo reliably. And Z company its a known fact that their Mags for their handguns are not up to par.

    It really comes down to reliability. Reliability is 100% more important than aesthetics of the gun. Then comes shooters ability to shoot the weapon accurately, which again trumps aesthetics of a weapon.

    So I will focus on these two points Reliability and Accuracy.
    I will say that if the hand gun goes boom every time the trigger is pulled with acceptable ammunition. The gun gets an A in my book.

    While Many trainers may disagree with me here. A gun does not have to be comfortable to shoot to be accurate. Why? Do i make such claims.. Simple, on study and a few compilations of data from various sources which are easily found online. It takes somewhere between 2 and 3 shoots to incapacitate an individual who wishes to do you or your family harm (all common hand gun cals). Even if shooting two full magazines of any gun is rather uncomfortable for your hand, recoil etc.. it doesn't matter. While there is room for argument that follow up shots are important.. etc.

    Why? You should only need to use about three shots!

    You are not going to be in a "Marathon Shoot Out". So if the gun is not comfortable to shoot beyond a few mags.. It is irrelevant. I would argue if the gun can shoot its Mag either it be 4 rounds or upwards close to 20.. even if it is not exactly the most comfortable form fitting gun in the hand.. It shouldn't matter for self defense. So the argument i can only get two fingers around the grip is a rather mute point.

    Now i will state that being able to reach the trigger is important..

    I am a firm believer that most of the incidents that would require a gun for defense purposes are going to be roughly in the 20 foot rule.. By the time the adrenaline starts pumping via your veins something comfortable is going to be the last of your concerns,(you won't notice is what i am trying to say) when the situation arises.

    It does not matter so much if you are using something like a Kel tech or LCP or if you are using a Beretta M9. As long as you can shoot it accurately down range 20 ft.

    Sure the longer the barrel the better the marksmanship. Sure someone is going to be more accurate with a 4 inch barrel than say something crazy like a 1/4th of an inch barrel.

    Your every day carry piece does not have to be "cumfy" "pretty" "sick looking" "light weight" etc. It must suit your needs. Meaning that if you need a pocket pistol Great..

    If you don't need a ultra compact gun, go with a compact gun if conceal is important to you.. May i suggest a single stack weapon.

    If you can open carry it doesn't matter what size gun you buy full size or itty bitty pocket rockets.

    So the color, the way a gun looks, the way the gun grips is all for you.. not its function.

    The gripes, Oh this gun isn't comfortable to shoot, or i don't like the color scheme of this gun, or its a poly gun or OMG it adds a whopping 8,10, 14 more ozs of carry and its metal thus it is junk.. is a load of Bull Puddles. Tactical and comfort are more or less those who are taking precession shots are say an attacker holding your wife hostage.. Do you really trust yourself to take that head shot? I sure wouldn't..

    Sure a gun should be comfortable to shoot, but the bottom line is I have yet to find a "pocket wonder" comfortable to shoot more than a few mags through. I have yet to find a poly gun that feels as good as a metal gun shooting at the range..

    Bottom line is most people buy their guns for a few reasons. 1 to collect them 2. to shoot them regularly 3. to show off to their friends almost like a status symbol. or 4. for self defense.

    Most people i know rarely go to the range or even shoot their guns, they carry them with them everywhere.. and some are actually horrid horrid shots..

    While it is very important to go to the range and train as much as possible and often.

    It really doesn't matter for those situations where you might be mugged or car jacked or being robbed you behind the counter if the gun fits your hand perfectly or is still comfortable 250 rounds down range.. those situations are going to take 2-3 bullets per person.. on average. Those shots are going to be taken in very close proximity to you.

    You can argue that it is important to practice practice practice, and comfort plays a roll.. Sure it does if you are shooting 250+ rounds at a time.. or a competition shooter, or working for swat.

    . But once you are comfortable with your gun and have broken it in and have had proper training and profecient with your gun
    .i suggest after that.. all you really need is a trip the the range about twice a month, a quick mag dump, and a quick acquire target pull trigger, repeat until mag is cleared of ammunition. Leave.. that is all that is needed assuming you are accurate Wash and repeat as often as possible. But other than very specific training.. purposes more than that is honestly a waste.. of ammo...

    :twocents:
     
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    9mmfan

    Grandmaster
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    Apr 26, 2011
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    Mishawaka
    Very well thought out. I can't really take issue with anything except I like the feel of my 'poly' guns (Glocks :D)
     

    Mackey

    Master
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    7   0   0
    Nov 4, 2011
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    interwebs
    Well said. But if a person doesn't care about the looks or make of his gun, I'm bettin that he's driving a Prius or some such model of car.
    Guns have a long and colorful history in this free nation of ours and what kind of gun you carry and/or own is an expression of who you are. Guns are not simply for the fight. ... most (nearly all) people will never have to defend themselves with their gun. Saying that asethetics don't matter and that a gun is only a tool is sort of like saying that only flag that has flown in battle is a real flag. The gun represents much more to me and others than a weapon or tool. For me personally, it reminds me of those I've known who have fought for freedom and it reminds me of my father who was proud to have been classified as a "Expert" with his Colt 45 during the Korean War. So I get what your saying, but I'm only buying about 45% of it.
    "Wake Up America" :)
     

    handgun

    Master
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    1   0   0
    Apr 1, 2012
    1,735
    48
    Central part of This state
    Well said. But if a person doesn't care about the looks or make of his gun, I'm bettin that he's driving a Prius or some such model of car.
    Guns have a long and colorful history in this free nation of ours and what kind of gun you carry and/or own is an expression of who you are. Guns are not simply for the fight. ... most (nearly all) people will never have to defend themselves with their gun. Saying that asethetics don't matter and that a gun is only a tool is sort of like saying that only flag that has flown in battle is a real flag. The gun represents much more to me and others than a weapon or tool. For me personally, it reminds me of those I've known who have fought for freedom and it reminds me of my father who was proud to have been classified as a "Expert" with his Colt 45 during the Korean War. So I get what your saying, but I'm only buying about 45% of it.
    "Wake Up America" :)

    I agree with you.. I like my guns to be pleasing to the eyes, but for self defense purposes.. Does it really matter? No.. Your emotions are playing here. If the unfortunate ever happens to you where you need to deploy your hand gun.. Are the thoughts going threw your head.. Gee golly Great grandpappy was an officer in world war I and carried a colt 1911. And now i am going to use the same gun to shoot this intruder.. NO... Well it Should not be.

    As for the Pris, Doubtful, Maybe he needs a small 40+ miles to the gallon car.. or maybe the person needs a pick up truck capable of hauling a trailer and equipment of sorts.. I Don't care what my truck looks like for example it has a job to do.. and it better do it.. I don't care if it says ford, dodge, chevy, or Toyota.. the curb appeal means pretty much nothing on a farm truck..

    This is more for those griping about oh that is too small, or x cal is better etc.. or that gun is too bulky.. Sure one day I will write some bit about curb appeal of various guns.. Expect a mini series of sorts.. so stay tuned..
     

    coorslight

    Plinker
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    0   0   0
    May 10, 2012
    75
    8
    Carver. MA.
    If you were born after 1979 than I have been shooting pistols before you were born, I agree with most of what you said,and with all the shooting and buying and selling I have done over the years none of my guns in my safe are over 10 years old. I tend to switch things up a bit. But recently I have fallen in love with the 3rd Generation S&W's. for me they are flawless in function accurate as hell and carry well. It took over 30 years but I have found the guns for me. I still have other brands, but when I am dead and gone the Smith's are the ones that will be left for family members to fight over.
     

    Mackey

    Master
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    Nov 4, 2011
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    I agree with you.. I like my guns to be pleasing to the eyes, but for self defense purposes.. Does it really matter? No.. Your emotions are playing here. If the unfortunate ever happens to you where you need to deploy your hand gun.. Are the thoughts going threw your head.. Gee golly Great grandpappy was an officer in world war I and carried a colt 1911. And now i am going to use the same gun to shoot this intruder.. NO... Well it Should not be.

    As for the Pris, Doubtful, Maybe he needs a small 40+ miles to the gallon car.. or maybe the person needs a pick up truck capable of hauling a trailer and equipment of sorts.. I Don't care what my truck looks like for example it has a job to do.. and it better do it.. I don't care if it says ford, dodge, chevy, or Toyota.. the curb appeal means pretty much nothing on a farm truck..

    This is more for those griping about oh that is too small, or x cal is better etc.. or that gun is too bulky.. Sure one day I will write some bit about curb appeal of various guns.. Expect a mini series of sorts.. so stay tuned..

    That's just arrogant and friggin rude!
     

    handgun

    Master
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    1   0   0
    Apr 1, 2012
    1,735
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    Central part of This state
    That's just arrogant and friggin rude!

    Overly sensitive maybe.

    One must make strong points to prove a point.. maybe you missed h... that was not there

    Arrogance would be nothing bad could ever happen to me..

    You missed the point.. and re read the original post and be creative... and try to find what i am stating.. its a pretty darn clear message.

    If we wish to use the same thought process one could easly say the pris comment was rather rude and arrogant.

    Please dont turn this into something it was never meant to be....
     

    RobbyMaQ

    #BarnWoodStrong
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    35   0   0
    Mar 26, 2012
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    Lizton
    I understand and agree with the points made in the OP. I bought my M&P9 because it was reliable, and because it felt comfortable in my hand compared to glock or xdm.
    I wanted comfort, not for the 2-3 rounds it might take me to put an intruder down... Instead I wanted the comfort for the thousands of rounds I plan on putting through it trying to put paper down.
     

    handgun

    Master
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    Apr 1, 2012
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    Central part of This state
    One thing. I keep seeing this pop up. It isn't "Kel Tech." It's "Kel Tec." Kel Tech is a chemical company out of Texas. Not a gun manufacturer.

    You are absolutely correct i will edit this when i get to a computer again. Sadly, i didnt have much time when i was on the computer last time. I caught a few things, and edited them rather quickly *face plant into my hand* i missed that. I did an ultra quick skim before posting.
     

    Birds Away

    ex CZ afficionado.
    Emeritus
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    18   0   0
    Aug 29, 2011
    76,248
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    Monticello
    Human Nature

    Just a quick thought regarding human nature:

    If a person likes their gun and likes to shoot it they will shoot it more often.
    If they shoot it more often they will be more proficient with said weapon.
    Being proficient with your weapon of choice may be the difference between going home...or not.
     

    Desdinova

    Marksman
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    Jun 9, 2012
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    Austin
    Okay, here's my thoughts on this. I agree with OP to a point. In the heat of the moment when all that stands between your family and some bath-salt zombie wannabe is the gun in your hand, it doesn't matter much what that gun is, as long is it and you can get the job done.

    But...

    Others have said that if you like your gun, it feels comfortable in your hand, etc., you are more likely to shoot it more often, thereby gaining more proficiency in it's operation and increasing your shooting skill. This is also very true. I've fired weapons that I'd happily pick up any day and I've fired some that for whatever reason, I'd never choose to fire again.

    Simply put, we are all individuals and we are going to have individual reasons for whatever firearms we choose. Whether it's a preference for a certain company's products, different calibers, different materials, or any other possible difference, we are all going to be different to a point.

    When it comes time to defend my family and any gun that goes bang will get the job done, I would still prefer the one that feels right in my hand and I've spent many wonderful hours with learning to properly use it.
     

    indyjoe

    Master
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    May 20, 2008
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    Indy - South
    The first thing I do at the range, when I have not been shooting for 2+ months, is load up my carry gun with cheaper carry ammo (non-premium HPs, generally) and setup an IPSC target. Then I draw and take out the target. I never feel as prepared as I should. I also am not as accurate as I would like, but all bullets have been on target. It is even better when I can have someone setup the target while I'm facing away from it.

    The biggest surprise, every time, is the recoil of high power to weight ratio guns. P3AT is a handful. The reason I shoot it each time after a delay is that I used to forget the snappiness. Now, I remember what it is like to shoot that "cold". I mentally expect it to be really, really bad (worse than reality). This is a mental game that assures I'm gripping it firm enough with no question that I could accurately dump a mag if needed without regripping.

    The first half of the mag is fast as I can keep it on the target. The second is fairly fast body and head shots. All at 25 feet. Or with small capacity guns like the P3AT or other single stacks, it is two mags.

    After this I assess how I felt. Did the grip move on me? Were my hits good? Did I shoot too fast with bad accuracy? Did I shoot too slow with more accuracy than I really needed?

    To me, this test is only valid if you have been on the bench for a while and jump into the game with no warmups. Because the person wishing to do you or yours harm will not be giving you notice.

    It still does not make me feel prepared for stove pipe, double feed, dud round, or no feed issues. Those are separate drills that "dumping a mag" does not make me prepared for. If the gun I carry exhibits any of these behaviors, it requires 200 rounds trouble free to "get out of jail" before I trust it again. But I want to be prepared if I see them when the situation isn't range practice. So my next mag or two involves many of those failures. Again, this is much easier to do with another shooter to setup failures for you. But some, like stovepipes, you have to act like you don't know about.
     
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    DustyDawg48

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    May 11, 2010
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    shooter 521 beat me too it. If it is your carry gun, you need far more than just the average mag dump and then go. Comfort shouldn't be the final deciding factor in your carry gun but if it is brutal to shoot you may not be completely proficient with it. Working reloads and clearing malfunctions, the draw and holstering... there is a lot that goes into it. I opted for my carry gun to be a smaller version of the guns I use in IDPA so my holster is the same, my sight pictures are mostly the same, trigger is the same...and I put hundreds of rounds through each gun each month.

    No flame war intended, I understand completely where you are coming from, just figured since comments were welcome I'd post some :D. other than disagreeing on that part I think I agree with most of what you were saying.
     

    tdoom15

    Marksman
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    Jan 12, 2012
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    Yea.

    I'm going to agree that a gun does not need to be the most comfortable for you to shoot it well. Training can overcome just about any ergo issue. That being said, if you like Glock vs MP, then so be it, there are no shortage of options out there.

    To everyone who says you are more likely to shoot something if you like it, you're going about it all wrong imo. Training is a COMMITMENT that requires dedication and sacrifice. How much you like your gun should have nothing to do with how much you shoot it, if anything it should push you to train more and overcome any issues you may have with it.

    Head shots should be able to be made at 20+ yards, directly between the eyes at 7 yards. While adding a loved one in a hostage situation to the equation would certainly change things, it certainly is within the realm of possibility. At this point, if there was no other choice but to make that shot, I would be glad I did more than just mag dumps on a piece of paper.
     

    handgun

    Master
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    Apr 1, 2012
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    Yes, but that is assuming one is already proficient with their gun. And or had proper training and go to the range often.

    Once a week or every other week..

    Not 3 times a year.

    Training is very important.

    I never said other wise.

    Once your hitting your target close to where you want to or dead on..for defense purposes what is the point of shooting 100+ rounds through the same gun other than. Pure enjoyment.

    I will make an edit
     
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