AAR: MDFI Shotgun I & II 6/25/11 & 6/26/11

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  • Sweetums

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    Dec 4, 2008
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    Lake County
    I thought that I would start a thread covering this weekend's Shotgun classes taught by Michigan Defensive Firearms Institute.

    Day 1 - Shotgun I

    We started the day out going over safety rules for the class and a round of introductions. After that, all of us students were broken into two groups. It worked out to where one group was on the firing line running drills, while the other group was reloading, rehydrating, and resting.

    Being a total shotgun noob, today was an eye opening experience. I always suspected that running a shotgun was more difficult then it looked. This is why I stayed away from shotguns for so long. Frankly, I was intimidated by the prospect of operating a shotgun altogether. So many choices in ammunition types, different control schemes for different models, I didn't know how to one reload quickly. Today, we mostly worked on shooting and reloading the gun. We were constantly pushed way beyond our comfort levels, and we learned at what point each of us would reach a point of failure, and do dumb things. I know I did some dumb things. I can't tell you how many times I fumbled trying to load shells, or work the gun incorrectly and cause myself a delay. I think that by the end of the class today, alot of those bugs were worked out. I certainly have alot of things to practice when I get home. The difference now, is that I know that I'm making mistakes, and I know what I need to do, which for me, mostly means speed and smoothness.

    Before today, my plan was that if I had to use my shotgun, I expected to run my magazine tube empty, drop it, and go to my handgun. I now better understand the strengths and weaknesses of a shotgun. Because of that, I am beginning to have the confidence to be able to use it as a weapon to defend my family with.

    If you have not, I urge you to take a class like this, and learn what a shotgun is truly capable of, and how to best use it.

    Today was very challenging, and I expect Shotgun II, which we are taking tomorrow, to be much more challenging. I do, thanks to Tom & Trek, feel ready for what will be thrown at us tomorrow.

    I am most certainly exhausted, and I am going to bed now.

    Day 2

    We did some warm ups consisting of drills we had worked on the prior day to refresh our minds. The rest of the day built upon the prior day's lessons. Everything that we learned on Day 1, was tied together in Day 2. We worked on engaging targets behind us, moving to and shooting from cover, shooting both right and left handed, we patterned our guns and worked on shotgun to handgun transitions.

    When working on targets behind us, we were taught how to look first, then move. This was added to later by having multiple choice targets. These drills were for me, by far the most fun I had at the class. However, I'd like to stress, that it could not have been accomplished without all the ground work that was done prior to this.

    A big lesson for me with working from cover was to keep as much of my body as possible tucked in behind cover, as well as our standoff distance from the cover itself.

    When we started switching hands, I had never shot a long gun left handed before, and learning how to transition was the hardest part of that for me. It was easier for me to shoot left handed then I anticipated.

    We patterned our guns, and several of us swapped buckshot and slugs around to each other, so that we could all try ammo that we had not brought along ourselves. That was a great opportunity. I discovered that one of the Federal Flite Control loads, and the Hornady Critical Defense performed best in my gun, while the Brenneke Home Defense Low Recoil Rifled Slugs delivered good performance in my gun as well. I have a ton of buckshot and slugs of less favorable options that I'm going to go burn through sometime this week to practice! I'll also be planning to purchase some more of my favorite slugs to sight in with.

    Leading up to our shotgun to handgun transitions, we did some pistol shooting to warm up. I asked Trek about the grip that we were being taught, as I couldn't reliably reach the safety on my CZ-75 with my right hand. I have typically used my support hand to operate the safety, magazine release, and slide stop. Tom proceeded to pin my left arm and ask what exactly I was supposed to do to defend myself in that situation, and I could do nothing. I think that along with learning how to properly load a shotgun, that was my biggest take away from the class. I've been rough on myself wondering how I could have been so stupid and miss something so obvious.

    Something that was drilled into our heads on both days was situational awareness. We were to do this by bring the shotgun up to just below our line of sight, so that we could see what we needed to do with the gun in our peripheral vision, while at the same time assessing the area for additional threats. We also stabilized and rotated the guns as needed to gain benefit from gravity and not to waste time with unneeded movements. By the end of Day 2, I found myself doing this while doing everything else. Loading side saddles while we were on break? Yup - scan and assess. My wife even asked what I was looking for when I plugged my cell phone into the car charger before we left for home...hahaha.


    Thank you Tom & Trek! I look forward to future training!
     
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    Sweetums

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    Dec 4, 2008
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    Lake County
    My gear worked well.

    Hawk 982 (870 copy with factory ghost rings) - $210
    Knoxx adjustable stock - $100
    Rail mounted to magazine - $15
    Light w/ tape switch - $50
    4 Velcro side saddles + Velcro on gun - $80

    Total - $455

    I'll work on Day 2 here in a bit (maybe tomorrow - I just got home). Anywho - My cheapo $210 Chinese copy ran perfectly. To top it off, it patterned quality buckshot loads nicely, and rifled slugs ran well too - just ask Tom & Trek. The gun did get thrown into the gravel a few times as well, and everything was just fine. My only gear failure was a pistol magazine - a brand new one that was meant for a CZ copy, that was dirt cheap, that I thought I would give a try in my genuine CZ. It was a fail, and will probably be for sale on INGO, as I'm sure that it would work just fine for it's intended gun. Besides that, even my inexpensive UTG branded light - still works. To be fair, I only ran it on Day 1. I thought it was broken this morning. I had partially unscrewed the bezel at the end of Day 1 so that it wouldn't accidentally be turned on inside the rifle bag, and on the beginning of Day 2, I had forgotten about that.

    My shotgun was purchased new a few weeks ago, and only had 25 rounds run through before class as a function check. I went through and put Loc-Tite on the screws that hold the rear sight in place, and that was the only thing I did to it that would affect function. The stock, of course is optional. I consider a light to be essential. I certainly put any qualms to rest that I had about a Chinese built 870 copy. I also didn't feel bad when I threw it on the deck, either. :D
     

    Sweetums

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    Dec 4, 2008
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    Lake County
    Also - before I go on about anything else, I am now going to go load my shotgun, with it's favorite buckshot, as well as load the side saddle, and place it in it's storage area. I am now confident in using this tool if someone intends to do my family or myself harm. Thanks to MDFI, I feel much better prepared for uninvited evil inside my home.
     

    eureka

    Plinker
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    May 19, 2011
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    Tom,

    Just to be fair now, the Benelli rear sight didn't break. I was using a Trijicon RMR 7moa dot sight and I did lose the dot when transitioning the gun to my left shoulder. This is because I'm right eye dominant.

    The strange thing was I only lost sight of the dot on the second shot. Not sure why that was and not sure if closing my right eye would have helped. I'll have to practice that and see.

    All in all I liked, the dot. This one does not use batteries and is tritium and fiber-optic powered only. The bright sunlight on day 1 did not wash out the dot which I've seen happen on other Trijicon products.

    Great class and I had a great time. My a$$ was whipped afterwards; I can tell you that.

    Thanks again!
     

    Tom Fineis

    Marksman
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    Mar 16, 2010
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    Cleveland, OH
    Anywho - My cheapo $210 Chinese copy ran perfectly.

    It had some ejection issues, and a few hundred rounds is not much of a durability test. That said, it seemed to run fine for you at class I'm glad you like it.

    Things that broke.....let's see......

    Semi auto guns with failures to cycle 6 rounds into class (weak loads, but other semi's ran them fine...)
    Broken ejector on Rem 870
    All sorts of AR15 stock adapters coming loose (stick with basic stuff, and use loctite)
    Beretta rear sight disappeared
    Benelli rear sight disappeared
    High end "upgrade" followers jamming in magazine tubes
    Ejection issues with some 870's and cheap Federal bulk loads
    Fancy ultra-tactical single point sling dropping an 870 on the ground....TWICE.

    The most reliable guns through class? Factory stock 870, 1100, and Mossberg 500. Crazy how the simple guns seem to work best, and give up little to nothing in usability.

    Adding a bunch of junk to your guns may look cool, but usually it makes them harder to manipulate and less reliable. The main advantage to a shotgun is that it is an inexpensive platform that is more capable than a pistol at stopping your adversary. Once you get all sorts of add-on's that hamper your ability to use the gun, and the system ends up costing as much as a good AR-15, I think it may be time to look into a rifle for personal defense instead...

    Another major issue are people bringing "too much gun" to class. 20" barrels with full length magazine tubes on heavy steel guns can be difficult to manipulate and hold for extended periods of time. Not being physically able to manipulate your gun is a major issue. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a reliable youth-sized 20 gauge for home defense, and they typically bring much less recoil and quite a bit less weight for the whole system.

    Just some thoughts. I hope you guys enjoyed the class and learned that 99% of the myths surrounding shotguns is pure internet BS. :D

    Hope to see you all again soon!
     

    Tom Fineis

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    Mar 16, 2010
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    Tom,

    Just to be fair now, the Benelli rear sight didn't break. I was using a Trijicon RMR 7moa dot sight and I did lose the dot when transitioning the gun to my left shoulder. This is because I'm right eye dominant.

    I wasn't speaking of your shotgun. The other Benelli lost its rear sight.
     

    Sweetums

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    Dec 4, 2008
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    Lake County
    My ejection issues, as far as I know, were all self induced. It was during the slug select drills with a fully loaded tube and I got myself confused when attempting to keep the magazine tube full, as the 870 isn't the best at rolling both rounds all the way out. I've decided that I'm just going to download the tube by one and not fight myself or the gun. I was planning on a magazine extension anyway, but I wanted to wait until after the class. I wanted to force myself to feed the gun during class, frequently.

    I'm also, thanks to you, shopping for a handgun that fits me better...LOL. Having you pin my left arm was an eye opener.
     
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    Indy_Guy_77

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    Apr 30, 2008
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    I'm also, thanks to you, shopping for a handgun that fits me better...LOL. Having you pin my left arm was an eye opener.

    Can you give more of a description of this? Poor gear choice? Poor hardware choice? Poor combination of the above?

    Thanks,

    -J-
     

    ARdysfunction

    Marksman
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    Feb 10, 2009
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    Indy West Side
    First off big, thanks to Tom and Trek for putting on a great class.

    I had fun and learned a bunch about how to use a shot gun correctly.
    Feed the tube!

    It was interesting to see all of the gear failures for sure. (even if one of them was the rear sight to my Beretta) Simple was what was working best by far. Although I am still not completly sold on pumps yet I am going to start training with one. If I get more used to it I might switch over...
    My Glock 19 also managed to jam up during the class. Something I have never had it do before. I was shooting one handed while holding my shotgun in the other hand. Probably just a limp wrist.

    A side sadle is in my future, and really a must have IMHO after completing the class. Loading from the belt is slow. Plus if you are using good form not where your eyes should be pointed.

    Can't wait to get out and run some drills!!!
     

    VUPDblue

    Silencers Have NEVER Been Illegal !
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    Mar 20, 2008
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    My sling was the one that failed. The weapons catch adapter on my UERT sling slipped through the buckle and came unfastened. My sling is pretty old and the buckle on the catch has been changed on newer models to prevent this from happening. I will be picking up a new weapons catch in the next couple days. Other than that issue, my shotgun ran great. It was a very good class.
     

    VUPDblue

    Silencers Have NEVER Been Illegal !
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    Mar 20, 2008
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    Here are a couple of my favorite pics and videos from the day:
    IMAG0035.jpg

    IMAG0030.jpg

    IMAG0027.jpg
    IMAG0032.jpg
     

    Steve MI

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    Aug 24, 2008
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    I see a lot of bladed shooting going on there.... nice pics hope the boys knocked the blading out of you LOL
     

    Steve MI

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    Aug 24, 2008
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    I know you know that why i said it because im sure much learning occurred with that small point of info to many dont get it:rockwoot:
     

    rhino

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    Mar 18, 2008
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    I know you know that why i said it because im sure much learning occurred with that small point of info to many dont get it:rockwoot:

    That's a good point. You have to do what you need to do to make it work at the time. This is always one of my issues because even most youth stocks are too long for me. My favorite shotgun (a Winchester SX2 Practical) can't be shortened because of the way it's built, so if I shoot it, I have to accommodate that.

    On the other hand, my Stoeger clone of a Benelli now has a stock so short that it's almost too short even for me. I'll show it to you some day. The necessity for a bladed stance is . . . no longer there.
     
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