Acceptable grouping out to 15-20 yards.

[EricG]

What would you consider an acceptable 5 shot group from a handgun with a sub 4" barrel, in its stock configuration, using factory ammo out to 20 yards? With decent sights and trigger?

 

[Mgderf]

Ideally, a sub 2" group would be great.
Realistically, 5 shots in a kill-zone would be "acceptable".


Practice, practice, practice...
Try some different ammo, and practice some more...
Rinse and repeat

 

[chezuki]

Ideally, a sub 2" group would be great.
Realistically, 5 shots in a kill-zone would be "acceptable".


Practice, practice, practice...
Try some different ammo, and practice some more...
Rinse and repeat

This.

For a defensive pistol, I'm more concerned with how quickly I can keep all those rounds in a fist-sized circle in the high-center chest area. Bulls-eye shooters may have different standards.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Slow aimed fire I can reliably do a 3" circle at 50' with any of my pistols.

Combat fire I can reliably do torso hits with ~90% of them within a 6" circle on the center.

 

[ChalupaCabras]

Target sized.

As long as you are keeping them on target, who cares? As long as the handgun is accurate enough so as not to endanger bystanders, who cares? Your goal in a defensive shooting isn't to kill anyone, only to stop agressive action.

Its great that IN has no duty to retreat, because that isn't always practical. That said, there are certain situations where its OK to shoot someone and break contact - you can shoot someone to the ground and then MOVE to a safe distance to make your emergency call. In that kind of a scenario, in the open, you wouldn't need much accuracy at all; virtually any worn out tube would do so long as it functioned.

You don't have to slug it out with the bad guy, and stand over his bullet riddled body, waving your permit card, and play the hero citizen for the cops. Use your discresion and better judgement.

As for fist sized center mass hits ... center mass of what? Center mass is the center of whatever mass is availible - it doesn't denote the torso. Come up with what you think is a practical worst case scenario - half the target obscured by cover, for example, and keep all of your shots on that. Maybe you are around cars and vehicles most of your day, and you percieve a threat in or around vehicles, so you shoot at targets from the sternum up to simulate the target profile of a car jacker, or even from the knees down to simulate shooting under a vehicle. Its up to you and what kind of threat you percieve as to what size your groups need to be.

 

[EricG]

Im averaging 8" groups with my M&P 9c outside of 15 yards, which is definitely combat effective. I wanted to determine whether my inexperience with compacts outside of conversation range or is it the pistol itself. Ill continue to put rounds downrange at distance to see if this improves.

 

[chezuki]

Im averaging 8" groups with my M&P 9c outside of 15 yards, which is definitely combat effective. I wanted to determine whether my inexperience with compacts outside of conversation range or is it the pistol itself. Ill continue to put rounds downrange at distance to see if this improves.

Compacts are a bit more unforgiving of user error. Dry-fire the hell out of it until you can consistently break the shot without the front sight moving/dipping/wobbling/etc. It's very unlikely that the pistol is the issue.

What "factory loads" are you using? I've found some stuff (Tula, Blazer, some WWB) to be very inconsistent. (to the point of producing the results you described from a benchrest)

 

[EricG]

Its blazer 115 grain FMJ

 

[rockhopper46038]

I've been spending more time recently working on accuracy at speed, particularly out of a holster. I'm stuck right now at 2 sec (+/- 0.15 sec) out of an IWB under a cover garment (T-shirt or untucked button down) onto a 8" steel at 15 yards. I don't consider that good enough. I also need more work on improving my snapping to the next target, and the next, and the next. When I get stuck, I seek out some training, and it's time for me to do that again. You might consider it, too. It's amazing how easily a good instructor can identify what is holding you back wherever you're stuck.

My current slow fire accuracy standard is I expect to keep everything I carry (except my Bodyguard .380) within a 3" circle out to 50ft. Some I can do better with, some I'm pushing that 3" circle with, but that's my current level of proficiency.

ETA: Totally missed the "sub 4in barrel" condition in the OP; At 3.9" my SIG P228 has the shortest barrel of anything I currently EDC. I don't know what my proficiency would be with something shorter than that.

 

[ArevaloSocom]

In a hurray? MOA of fist.

 

[ModernGunner]

Ya know those cheapie paper plates with the 'scalloped' edge ya buy at the local dollar store or wherever that cost about $1 or so, for a stack of 'em? Those are (typically) 9" plates. The inside of those have a 'raised' (embossed) center, which measure 5.75" (on the ones I have, anyway).

That inner 'circle' is what I use for 'rapid-fire combat accuracy' at handgun ranges. If I'm feeling like a 'big spender', I'll stick one of those brightly colored sticky 'dots' (3/4", got 'em at Staples) that folks use for pricing their yard sale stuff. If not, I just take a cheap marker (or even the ball point I always have) and draw a little dot somewhere in the center of it. Mainly 'cause the 'whole plate' is too large of an area to really focus on.

That's what I typically use for handgun range. Keep 'em within that 5.75" inner ridge, and you're going to 'keep the targets attention', at the least, LOL. Smaller is better, of course, 'cause it demonstrates consistency.

I have B27's and such, but IMO that's too big of an area to focus on and, my 'hawkeyes' not being what they used to be, I can't see those lightly printed X's when the target gets cranked out beyond 15 - 20 yds.

Slow-fire bullseye shooting, that's a 'whole different animal'. Then, ideally, ya want 'em all (however many the handgun holds) in one 'rough' hole, IMO.

Those are my personal 'standards'. YMMV.

 

[BE Mike]

Target sized.

As long as you are keeping them on target, who cares? As long as the handgun is accurate enough so as not to endanger bystanders, who cares? Your goal in a defensive shooting isn't to kill anyone, only to stop agressive action.

Its great that IN has no duty to retreat, because that isn't always practical. That said, there are certain situations where its OK to shoot someone and break contact - you can shoot someone to the ground and then MOVE to a safe distance to make your emergency call. In that kind of a scenario, in the open, you wouldn't need much accuracy at all; virtually any worn out tube would do so long as it functioned.

You don't have to slug it out with the bad guy, and stand over his bullet riddled body, waving your permit card, and play the hero citizen for the cops. Use your discresion and better judgement.

As for fist sized center mass hits ... center mass of what? Center mass is the center of whatever mass is availible - it doesn't denote the torso. Come up with what you think is a practical worst case scenario - half the target obscured by cover, for example, and keep all of your shots on that. Maybe you are around cars and vehicles most of your day, and you percieve a threat in or around vehicles, so you shoot at targets from the sternum up to simulate the target profile of a car jacker, or even from the knees down to simulate shooting under a vehicle. Its up to you and what kind of threat you percieve as to what size your groups need to be.

Actually, shot placement is important to stopping an attacker. I would advise the OP to set a goal and as he improves, set a new goal. One should never be satisfied with their skill level. Don't forget drawing, reloading and tactics.

 

[Hohn]

This.

For a defensive pistol, I'm more concerned with how quickly I can keep all those rounds in a fist-sized circle in the high-center chest area. Bulls-eye shooters may have different standards.

Personally, I think it's most important for the first shot to find it's mark. I will slow down to try and NAIL the first shot, then speed up the follow ups if I can.

Note, my present shooting abilities are more aspiration than demonstration. Last time out, I could barely keep half of them on an 8" Shoot'n'C at 25 yards.


I'm not too disappointed by this, because when I've done other kinds of shooting (faster fire at closer range) I did better. In other words, I seem to be able to improve my speed more easily than accuracy.

At 7-10 yards, I'm usually <3". Not great, but not a terrible starting point to work from, either.

 

[jforrest]

Never! I like to say there is always room for improvement. My goal is to put every bullet through the same hole. This way I am always working on accuracy, because you can never be too accurate. Even in a self defense scenario, I would like every bullet to hit my intended target because you never know where a missed shot could end up.

 

[tbhausen]

What's a reasonable maximum distance to practice self-defense with a handgun?

 

[BE Mike]

What's a reasonable maximum distance to practice self-defense with a handgun?

The distance where you would consider retreating would be the better course of action. Actually, IMHO, I think people worry about things like distance and equipment more than they worry about the fundamentals of marksmanship, drawing, tactics, and reloading. If you learn how to shoot a handgun accurately, distances won't worry you. OTOH, if you don't learn marksmanship, you probably won't hit anything beyond touching distance.

 

[Amishman44]

What would you consider an acceptable 5 shot group from a handgun with a sub 4" barrel, in its stock configuration, using factory ammo out to 20 yards? With decent sights and trigger?

Target shooting...at 60'...I'd be happy with a 8-12" grouping using something that has something less than 4" barrel!

In an adrenyline-laced, split-second-decision, life-n-death situation...at those ranges...I'm guessing one would be lucky to get one hit in five (1:5)!

I'd be careful shooting at someone at those ranges...unless the aggressor is pointing a gun at you and actually firing their weapon, there are many (of whom will have months to analyze, critique, and criticize the choices you make in 1/10th of a life-n-death situation) who will think differently! There are those, who serve on juries, who think if the distance is greater, the choices are greater! We all know with a bullet, those differences are mute, but those people exist!

 

[Amishman44]

What's a reasonable maximum distance to practice self-defense with a handgun?

I believe the actual gunfight scenario is something like 2 shots at 7'...or something like that? IDK...7' is really freakin' close with a gun!

 

[Dead Duck]

Pfft - 20 yards?

I got 3 inch groups with my little G26 at 200 yards........






















So what if I walked the first 195 yards.

 

[Hitchhiker]

This is something that I definately need to work on.