Accurate 1680 ignition problems in 300 BLK

[oldpink]

I would submit that anyone who uses primers with which he so lacks in confidence that he has to examine them to ensure that the anvils are present for all of them beforehand is trying to reload on the cheap.
I don't have anywhere near the reloading experience that many of the folks on INGO have, especially that of 17 squirrel, but I've personally loaded well north of 3K rounds with CCI primers, and I have had exactly zero failures.
I've loaded close to 1K with Federal primers, and lo, not a single failure.
It's easy enough to see the anvil side of the primers in the loading tray that flips them right-side-up, but the only thing I ever examine with my primers is ensuring that the seating depth is uniformly between 0.003" and 0.004", and even a secondary examination to verify that is unnecessary. since my RCBS APS benchtop primer tool has an adjustable seating depth with a positive stop.
You mentioned crimp, and lots of folks say that a tighter crimp will help get more uniform powder combustion, but the folks who really know these things say that excessive crimp, or improperly executed crimp, can actually hinder bullet tension and make combustion less uniform.
The best, most reliable way to uniformity of powder burn is with good neck tension, with the expander ball doing just enough expansion to allow the bullet to seat without stripping off the jacket, or in your case shaving the lead.

 

[CountryBoy19]

In all honesty, you're the first person I have ever heard suggest that one should inspect primers before inserting them into a case. What's more, I've seated literally tens of thousands of primers into cases without checking them and, lo and behold, 99.9% of them have worked. Given that you're determined to use an inferior product, YMMV.

99.9% of them have worked... interesting, I've loaded about 10k wolf primers in cases, only had 1 failure that was determined to be primer related, which gives me a 99.99% success. What's your point? Even if I factor in the 2 other primers that had manufacturing defects that leaves me at 99.97% good. Again, what's your point? I don't buy it for a second that other brands are so far beyond Wolf in quality and quality control that it justifies the price difference.

inspect primers before they are pressed in, that's interesting, a complete waste of time , but interesting.
i always thought that the anvil was seated in place and the primer activated when the primer bottomed out in the case. ahhhhh.,.,.,.,., tens and tens and tens of thousands of loaded rounds and i have never checked a primer anvil before or after its been installed....

How is it a waste of time? It doesn't take any more time than not inspecting them, it just takes more attention. And certainly you aren't arguing that giving your loading process more attention is a bad idea are you?

what do i know,, you try to help someone who asked for help, and all he tells you is you're wrong. Good Luck OP

I asked if anybody else was having problems with the latest batch of powder and with the exception of a few helpful posts all I got was a couple people that wanted to insult my choice in primer, despite the fact that there are MILLIONS of them being used to properly fire cases all over the world...

I would submit that anyone who uses primers with which he so lacks in confidence that he has to examine them to ensure that the anvils are present for all of them beforehand is trying to reload on the cheap.

First of all, if I lacked confidence I wouldn't be using them; I'm fully confident in their ability to fire cases...
Second of all, yes, I'm trying to reload on the cheap; who isn't trying to save money? I load plinking ammo and varmint ammo. If either of those have a failure it's not the end of the world or the end of my life. CCI primers are significantly more expensive and looking above broom_jr has 99.9% success with his chosen primers and I have 99.97% success with Wolf primers, seems to be a bit of disparity here between the comments trashing Wolf and the data on success/failure there-of. If anybody else would like to chime in with actual hard facts of how many primers they've used and how many failures they've had that were positively attributed to a primer failure I'm all ears.

 

[oldpink]

[...]
First of all, if I lacked confidence I wouldn't be using them; I'm fully confident in their ability to fire cases...
Second of all, yes, I'm trying to reload on the cheap; who isn't trying to save money? I load plinking ammo and varmint ammo. If either of those have a failure it's not the end of the world or the end of my life. CCI primers are significantly more expensive and looking above broom_jr has 99.9% success with his chosen primers and I have 99.97% success with Wolf primers, seems to be a bit of disparity here between the comments trashing Wolf and the data on success/failure there-of. If anybody else would like to chime in with actual hard facts of how many primers they've used and how many failures they've had that were positively attributed to a primer failure I'm all ears.

You obviously read only the first sentence that I posted to which you replied.
between 3K and 4K rounds loaded with CCI and Federal and not one failure.
For those of you playing at home, that's not 99.97%, not even 99.98%.
Oh, you also totally skipped over the part when I offered the suggestion about neck tension and its relationship with crimp.
As squirrel noted, plenty of other folks here offered suggestions to resolve your issue, and instead you brush them aside, apparently so wed to your primers and so resistant to doing anything else but adjusting your crimp (which I predict won't help one bit, btw) that you won't even get a chance to see if those suggestions just might work.
Okay horse, don't drink then.

 

[17 squirrel]

99.9% of them have worked... interesting, I've loaded about 10k wolf primers in cases, only had 1 failure that was determined to be primer related, which gives me a 99.99% success. What's your point? Even if I factor in the 2 other primers that had manufacturing defects that leaves me at 99.97% good. Again, what's your point? I don't buy it for a second that other brands are so far beyond Wolf in quality and quality control that it justifies the price difference.


How is it a waste of time? It doesn't take any more time than not inspecting them, it just takes more attention. And certainly you aren't arguing that giving your loading process more attention is a bad idea are you?


I asked if anybody else was having problems with the latest batch of powder and with the exception of a few helpful posts all I got was a couple people that wanted to insult my choice in primer, despite the fact that there are MILLIONS of them being used to properly fire cases all over the world...


First of all, if I lacked confidence I wouldn't be using them; I'm fully confident in their ability to fire cases...
Second of all, yes, I'm trying to reload on the cheap; who isn't trying to save money? I load plinking ammo and varmint ammo. If either of those have a failure it's not the end of the world or the end of my life. CCI primers are significantly more expensive and looking above broom_jr has 99.9% success with his chosen primers and I have 99.97% success with Wolf primers, seems to be a bit of disparity here between the comments trashing Wolf and the data on success/failure there-of. If anybody else would like to chime in with actual hard facts of how many primers they've used and how many failures they've had that were positively attributed to a primer failure I'm all ears.

I could care less what primer you were using, I like others suggested that you try a different primer.
But your response here again was to tell everybody why they were wrong.
You are the one with the problem here, not the few guys that responded to this thread.
And again to check primer anvils is just silly. All primer company's set there anvils differently. Some stick up alot and some not so much, some lean to one side. But unless you have The Man of Steel Vision or those Xray glasses from the back of a Marvel Comic and can look through a flashhole you have no idea how a anvil is truly seated.

How difficult is it to load up 20 more rounds with different brass and twenty more rounds with Naphtha cleaned brass and a different company's
primers ????
And maybe 20 more with a Mag primer ??????
I mean damn.. Your issues could maybe have been solved already.

You are locked in a paradigm that everything you are doing is correct,
But yet you have a serious problem with the rounds you're reloading.
It's a easy problem to fix, you just haven't decided you are ready to actually fix it yet.

But, what do I know.

 

[CountryBoy19]

You obviously read only the first sentence that I posted to which you replied.
between 3K and 4K rounds loaded with CCI and Federal and not one failure.
For those of you playing at home, that's not 99.97%, not even 99.98%.
Oh, you also totally skipped over the part when I offered the suggestion about neck tension and its relationship with crimp.
As squirrel noted, plenty of other folks here offered suggestions to resolve your issue, and instead you brush them aside, apparently so wed to your primers and so resistant to doing anything else but adjusting your crimp (which I predict won't help one bit, btw) that you won't even get a chance to see if those suggestions just might work.
Okay horse, don't drink then.

To be clear, I didn't skip over your suggestions. I read them and took them to heart. It was good information and your post was most certainly counted in the group of helpful posts I mentioned.

I haven't brushed any suggestions aside except the insults on primers and the questioning of my use of Napth to clean lube from cases. As an engineer and somebody that fully understands chemistry the mere suggestion that naptha could cause the issues I'm experiencing is asinine but I tried to be nice about it, what more do you want? Also, IMHO, there is nothing wrong with the brand of primer I'm using. The problem I'm experiencing, if primer related, would indicate a poorly performing primer compound. The only issues I've had with Wolf primer, and the only documented issues I've seen of Wolf primers had nothing to do with the priming compound, only with manufacturing defects in anvil placement. As I stated up thread, I will certainly admit to the fact that the priming compound in these primers could be suspect (I bought them 2nd-hand) but I can say with absolute certainty that the BRAND of primer is irrelevant to this issue.

 

[17 squirrel]

To be clear, I didn't skip over your suggestions. I read them and took them to heart. It was good information and your post was most certainly counted in the group of helpful posts I mentioned.

I haven't brushed any suggestions aside except the insults on primers and the questioning of my use of Napth to clean lube from cases. As an engineer and somebody that fully understands chemistry the mere suggestion that naptha could cause the issues I'm experiencing is asinine but I tried to be nice about it, what more do you want? Also, IMHO, there is nothing wrong with the brand of primer I'm using. The problem I'm experiencing, if primer related, would indicate a poorly performing primer compound. The only issues I've had with Wolf primer, and the only documented issues I've seen of Wolf primers had nothing to do with the priming compound, only with manufacturing defects in anvil placement. As I stated up thread, I will certainly admit to the fact that the priming compound in these primers could be suspect (I bought them 2nd-hand) but I can say with absolute certainty that the BRAND of primer is irrelevant to this issue.

You summed up this entire thread with " as a engineer ",
You are thinking as a engineer, you can't be doing anything wrong and the parts I spec'ed for this job are the best parts for this job. And it must be a outside factor that is causing my problems but I am a ENGINEER and its can't be me or my processes. Some engineers will spend inane amounts of time and money trying to prove that what they designed or process'es they have written are correct when to others that look at it see that it will never work.


How about you step outside your mindset ( paradigm ) and think like a Scientist, with that a Scientist would change the process's one step at a time until he found out what the problem is.
I know this, Myself I don't think like a stereotypical engineer, I would have had this simple simple problem nipped in the bud the evening of the day it happened.

But again, what do I know.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I like others suggested that you try a different primer.

And I can certainly do that, and I will if that's what it comes down to. I'll start at the easiest thing first. For now the easiest primer change is to stick with a Wolf brand primer but different type/lot.

But your response here again was to tell everybody why they were wrong.
You are the one with the problem here, not the few guys that responded to this thread.

I don't believe I told others they were wrong, simply questioned how/why such could cause an issue. I don't blindly follow advice, I must understand the why/how before doing so. I'm very methodical... if you have a problem with that then tough... That being said, if you'd like to help me understand things better rather than just argue then lets discuss...

And again to check primer anvils is just silly. All primer company's set there anvils differently. Some stick up alot and some not so much, some lean to one side. But unless you have The Man of Steel Vision or those Xray glasses from the back of a Marvel Comic and can look through a flashhole you have no idea how a anvil is truly seated.

I don't believe you're understanding the issue at hand at all and this response demonstrates that 100% clearly. Like you alluded to below with me being stuck in a paradigm, I think you are also stuck in a paradigm on your understanding of anvil seating. In the primer manufacturing process, while the priming compound is still soft in the cup, the anvil is lightly pressed into the cup/compound so that it stays in place. In my previous experiences (all with Large rifle magnum primers) Wolf has had an issue with this process. 3 anvils in 10,000 have managed to NOT be properly pressed into the cup/compound and a firing pin strike will NOT set the primer off due to that. It is a defect that is very obvious when you inspect the primers after dumping them into a priming tool and it takes NO additional time or effort, just a bit more attention to detail (look at the primers in the priming tool as you're shaking it to get them all flipped the right way). Do you better understand the issue now?

How difficult is it to load up 20 more rounds with different brass

Quite difficult if it requires me to buy brass/ammo that is no available locally.

twenty more rounds with Naphtha cleaned brass

As stated earlier I can't do this, I've already treated my cases with this treatment. Being as I've seen numerous chemistry classes from high-school to advanced science levels at college, I'm just going to go out and say it. The naptha has absolutely NOTHING to do with this issue, it's just that simple. There is NO scientific explanation why it would cause an issue and you cannot provide any explanation or reasoning why it would other than "I've never heard of anybody doing that before".

Ok, now you can say I've told others they were wrong; you won't let the issue drop so I'm just going to say it plain and simple now.

and a different company's
primers ????

When I have to buy more primers that aren't available locally it's a bit difficult.

And maybe 20 more with a Mag primer ??????

As already stated the primer I'm using is hotter than normal mag primers. I will go ahead and step down to a normal mag primer though just to be thorough.

I mean damn.. Your issues could maybe have been solved already.

Could be, I haven't had time to tackle any of this yet, haven't even pounded the last stuck bullet out of barrel yet. Life is busy... Don't mistake my attempt to understand this more thoroughly as a lack of trying to actually fix the problem. I don't have time to tackle this problem at the moment, just looking for some answers before I do...

You are locked in a paradigm that everything you are doing is correct,
But yet you have a serious problem with the rounds you're reloading.
It's a easy problem to fix, you just haven't decided you are ready to actually fix it yet.

But, what do I know.

I think you're jumping to conclusions...

 

[CountryBoy19]

You summed up this entire thread with " as a engineer ",
You are thinking as a engineer, you can't be doing anything wrong and the parts I spec'ed for this job are the best parts for this job. And it must be a outside factor that is causing my problems but I am a ENGINEER and its can't be me or my processes. Some engineers will spend inane amounts of time and money trying to prove that what they designed or process'es they have written are correct when to others that look at it see that it will never work.


How about you step outside your mindset ( paradigm ) and think like a Scientist, with that a Scientist would change the process's one step at a time until he found out what the problem is.
I know this, Myself I don't think like a stereotypical engineer, I would have had this simple simple problem nipped in the bud the evening of the day it happened.

But again, what do I know.

Jumping to conclusions again...

First of all you're assuming that I was even able to nip this in the bud the evening it happened. Nevermind the fact that I was 300 miles from my home and my reloading equipment. Nevermind the fact that I didn't have time to nip it in the bud that evening, or any evening since that time.

Regarding your engineer drivel, I'm not trying to defend my methods, and only trying to defend my choice in components because #1 thousands of people are using the exact same components with no issue, yet you take issue with them as if that's 100% certainly the cause for my issues, and #2 the [strike]evidence[/strike] anecdotes you've provided telling me why my component choice is the issue have no real data to back them up. If you can actually provide evidence that my components are poor choices I would certainly listen but I think you're painting with a pretty broad brush to imply that everything by brand X is bad when clearly the evidence suggests otherwise.

 

[Broom_jm]

So, to sum up: You're an Engineer, do not lack confidence in your reloading abilities, and will defend your choice of components til the bitter end.

But, you'd like to know why you have seen some misfires in your handloads. Anecdotal evidence would suggest there is nothing anyone can offer that would be of any use to you, so best of luck!

 

[17 squirrel]

Well Mr College Educated Engineer Man,, i m not the one with the problem here now am I ?
I'm not the one justifying the components and processes you use. YOU are.
The rest of the world that loads with the same components and with the same processes you are using DONT HAVE THE SAME PROBLEMS YOU ARE HAVING. So it must be the way you are doing it OR there is a problem with one of the components you are using.
I don't believe I have condemned any components or process'es that you have or do. I made the statement that I have never heard of anyone degreasing brass with Naphtha. And personally I don't agree with it.
First for the safety reasons of a high flashpoint chemical and than the health reasons and then I don't know the effects of residual liquid or fumes to other Reloading components.

But thanks for making my point.... Again.


Color purple where its deemed nessessery.

 

[17 squirrel]