Air Force Fails To Kill Off The A-10 Warthog But Boy Did They Try

[actaeon277]

Military Intelligence

I don't care how many times I hear those two words... I still laugh.

 

[indyblue]

Has anybody in the Fort Wayne area seen A-10s flying over lately? It use to be a daily occurrence of at least a pair flying low and slow overhead, but I think it's been at least a month since I've seen them.

They were flying over the Indianapolis speedway in May.

Possibly practice runs, they flew over my house a few times.

 

[Mikey1911]

I don't care how many times I hear those two words... I still laugh.

Occasionally "military intelligence" does get it right (cf. Joe Rochefort and HYPO at Midway); but "political ethics" Is the biggest non sequitur known to the English language.

 

[KellyinAvon]

I remember TPTB 20 years ago talking about “effects” and the effect was what was important not the platform.

A Hellfire from a Predator, a 500 pound JDAM from a B-1/B-2/B-52, 105/40/30mm from an AC-130, small diameter bombs/cluster bombs from F-15E/F-16, cannon from the Hawg.

Time and place may have something to do with it.

 

[KellyinAvon]

Tungsten steel rods falling from a satellite… were we at on this? I’ll ask my bud at Space Force.

It’s a time-distance thing. An old Colonel I worked for many years ago used those words. They apply in many situations, close air support being one.

 

[Alamo]

The guys calling CAS wanted the Hawg’s gun if an AC-130 wasn’t on station.

As your comment implies it is better than the A-10 for support against guerrilla/terrorist formations - much more ammo, much longer loiter time, better sensors, more and bigger guns.

But the AC-130 has the same problem the A-10 has — it is highly vulnerable on a battlefield where the enemy has anti-aircraft defenses. Post-invasion Iraq and Afghanistan, guerrilla warfare, great environment for AC-130.

At the start of Desert Storm three AC-130s went to the support of Marine units during the Iraqi tank and infantry attack on Khafji in Saudi Arabia. The first two flew at night and had successful missions against Iraqi vehicles and positions. Spirit 03 took over at the end of the night and was still on station when the sun started to rise. This backlit Spirit 03 against the morning sky while probably making it difficult for them to see the ground. The Iraqis fired a single missile and struck the left wing, setting it on fire. Spirit 03 crashed in the Persian Gulf killing all on 14 board. It was the single greatest loss of life for the Air Force In Desert Storm.

In response to the lessons learned in DS the gunships were significantly upgraded with not only better offensives and defensive systems, but better training and tactics which included training the crew to operate the weapons while wearing oxygen masks. This let them implement the tactic of flying higher. You need to be on O2 when flying above 12,000 feet. Altitude puts them above AA guns gives their electronic defensive measures time to detect and automatically react to a missile launch (chaff, flares, jamming) as well as giving the pilot time to conduct evasive maneuvers.

Again, low and slow against the enemy with even semi-modern battlefield air defense is a losing proposition. Counterinsurgency? Sure. (as long as the insurgency has not been provided shoulder fired missiles.) The AC-130 and the AT-802U will be great for that.

 

[actaeon277]

Occasionally "military intelligence" does get it right (cf. Joe Rochefort and HYPO at Midway); but "political ethics" Is the biggest non sequitur known to the English language.

And that example is 80 years old.
So...

 

[KellyinAvon]

As your comment implies it is better than the A-10 for support against guerrilla/terrorist formations - much more ammo, much longer loiter time, better sensors, more and bigger guns.

But the AC-130 has the same problem the A-10 has — it is highly vulnerable on a battlefield where the enemy has anti-aircraft defenses. Post-invasion Iraq and Afghanistan, guerrilla warfare, great environment for AC-130.

At the start of Desert Storm three AC-130s went to the support of Marine units during the Iraqi tank and infantry attack on Khafji in Saudi Arabia. The first two flew at night and had successful missions against Iraqi vehicles and positions. Spirit 03 took over at the end of the night and was still on station when the sun started to rise. This backlit Spirit 03 against the morning sky while probably making it difficult for them to see the ground. The Iraqis fired a single missile and struck the left wing, setting it on fire. Spirit 03 crashed in the Persian Gulf killing all on 14 board. It was the single greatest loss of life for the Air Force In Desert Storm.

In response to the lessons learned in DS the gunships were significantly upgraded with not only better offensives and defensive systems, but better training and tactics which included training the crew to operate the weapons while wearing oxygen masks. This let them implement the tactic of flying higher. You need to be on O2 when flying above 12,000 feet. Altitude puts them above AA guns gives their electronic defensive measures time to detect and automatically react to a missile launch (chaff, flares, jamming) as well as giving the pilot time to conduct evasive maneuvers.

Again, low and slow against the enemy with even semi-modern battlefield air defense is a losing proposition. Counterinsurgency? Sure. (as long as the insurgency has not been provided shoulder fired missiles.) The AC-130 and the AT-802U will be great for that.

So you're saying, it depends upon which war we are fighting? Are we fighting a war in a manner that Sun Tzu would approve? Are we in a quagmire of nation-building being micro-managed from DC?

More to follow...

 

[KellyinAvon]

So you're saying, it depends upon which war we are fighting? Are we fighting a war in a manner that Sun Tzu would approve? Are we in a quagmire of nation-building being micro-managed from DC?

More to follow...

We went into Vietnam with a fighter that had no gun. It was designed to fight a war that never happened (thankfully.)

We always plan to fight the last war, but we never do. Will we need the 5th Gen capability (assuming it works) of the F-35 or an A-1E Skyraider that can carry JDAMs? The answer is, "it depends..."

Conventional/force-on-force... will we see this again? With who?

Now the "where" part: what if it's here? Not military invasion but an insurgency. How many insurgents are already here?

I'll now avoid the rabbit hole...

 

[Mikey1911]

And that example is 80 years old.
So...

Yeah, upon further consideration, you’re right. Military Intelligence is going to be subordinated to Military ‘Social Engineering’ as long as ObamaBidenism is in the ascendency.

Guys like Rochefort and Layton would be run completely out of the Navy these days for a lack of commitment to “diversity, equity, and inclusion”—regardless their performance.

I guess we have to hope that the Acting CNO is not just a Chromosome Choice. Austin and Milley are beyond salvage.