AIWB vs 0300 IWB carry

[dudley0]

Pulled this from another conversation concerning the two different styles of carry.

Background is that I switched a year and a half or so ago from 0300 carry to AIWB. Now with recent topics being brought up about real world pros and cons I figured I would see what real life experience people have about the plus and minus of each.

This is not meant to be a thread where everyone says that AIWB carry is too dangerous because you flag yourself constantly or will shoot yer junk off or hit your femoral artery.

I am comfortable with both the carry styles. I am just curious about what people think is best and for what reasons... only concerning getting the firearm drawn and in use during a conflict.

With AIWB you have faster draws and for me better retention in the holster if someone gets grabby. You also potentially have a smoother draw if someone is on top of you or has you pressed against a wall, vehicle or such. I can hide my firearm a little more with this carry as well, even with the food blister.

0300-0400 carry has better concealed or distracted draws. I didn't have a comfort issue when I carried this way, but I could only retain the firearm with my strong hand and my weak side hand is beyond hope for anything much beyond a ***** slap.

I know that a lot of the people over at pf are die hard AIWB believers. Just trying to get more data to help me decide on what and where. I do not like changing things like carry mode, handgun platforms and the like because then I have to re-teach myself to be comfortable with draw and use.

 

[CPT Nervous]

I carry 3-4:00. I think appendix has a lot of value. I was thinking of switching, but I carry concealed in such a rare capacity, that it's not worth it for me to do.

You can draw faster from appendix. I think that balances out with the better concealed draw at 4:00. From appendix, you can draw and shoot before they know what hit them. Remember, action is faster than reaction.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The biggest drawback to AIWB I see is, as you noted, access under direct observation. If someone is trying to mug you and already has a weapon pointed at you you need to be much faster on the draw as your opponent is likely to realize you are going for a gun earlier. With behind the hip carry, your hand is obscured and you can establish grip before your opponent knows if you are giving up a wallet or producing a weapon.

AIWB is apparently faster in terms of raw speed, but you're giving up some reaction time on the other guy's side if he's watching you, which is when you need speed the most.

Now, that may change if you are forced to react from a seated position. I have not tried it myself, but it seems to be AIWB would be faster and more natural looking to access while seated then behind the hip carry. The question becomes how often does one have to defend from a seated position, and in those situations is standing or repositioning not an option? Seat belted in the car seems like a potential case where AIWB may very well be the best answer.

Retention I won't really comment on. I'm sure there are situations where both have an advantage over the other.

Every carry position has trade offs, situations where it shines and situations where it is less than optimal. What do you think your most likely scenario is where you must access the pistol quickly? Which carry method is best at that?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

From appendix, you can draw and shoot before they know what hit them. Remember, action is faster than reaction.

Can you? While under direct observation and with a weapon already on you, such as a street robbery?

 

[CPT Nervous]

Can you? While under direct observation and with a weapon already on you, such as a street robbery?

You'd have to be quick, and you may not beat the other guys finger. It isn't perfect in every scenario, but nothing is.

Under direct observation with a weapon already on you? No. In a store robbery where they're not watching you as close? Probably.

Some people can draw incredibly fast from appendix.

 

[dudley0]

Can you? While under direct observation and with a weapon already on you, such as a street robbery?

This is exactly what has thrown the monkey wrench into my entire carry situation. You have brought up a very good point about discreet draw.

I don't plan on having a firearm pointed at me.... but in the case that it happens I am now wondering about a new problem.

Hypothetical planning.... gun is pointed at me... I am asked for my wallet (which I don't carry)... I can reach for it in my hip pocket, while moving my shirt or coat out of the way and draw from 0300-0400.... or do I reach for the wallet while turning my torso a bit more and present from AIWB?

I know that it all depends... so many variables... now I have a headache and need to make new plans to do some blue gun draws.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This is exactly what has thrown the monkey wrench into my entire carry situation. You have brought up a very good point about discreet draw.

I don't plan on having a firearm pointed at me.... but in the case that it happens I am now wondering about a new problem.

Hypothetical planning.... gun is pointed at me... I am asked for my wallet (which I don't carry)... I can reach for it in my hip pocket, while moving my shirt or coat out of the way and draw from 0300-0400.... or do I reach for the wallet while turning my torso a bit more and present from AIWB?

I know that it all depends... so many variables... now I have a headache and need to make new plans to do some blue gun draws.

Watch yourself in a mirror. Can you look natural and turn enough to really hide the draw?

 

[CPT Nervous]

Carry a wallet. Throw it at the bad guy, then draw on him.

 

[dudley0]

Watch yourself in a mirror. Can you look natural and turn enough to really hide the draw?

The pee stain in my pants will distract a lot.

For me, and I am not a thug, if I saw a guy making a move for 0300 I would be alerted. This is the first place I look when trying to determine who is and isn't carrying.

I see what you are saying tho... and will do a little mirror testing on discreet draws.

Has any of your collected data included where on the body the weapon was located?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The pee stain in my pants will distract a lot.

For me, and I am not a thug, if I saw a guy making a move for 0300 I would be alerted. This is the first place I look when trying to determine who is and isn't carrying.

I see what you are saying tho... and will do a little mirror testing on discreet draws.

Has any of your collected data included where on the body the weapon was located?

Yeah, but given the small sample size, I'm not breaking that data out from the major categories yet.

 

[gglass]

The biggest drawback to AIWB I see is, as you noted, access under direct observation. If someone is trying to mug you and already has a weapon pointed at you you need to be much faster on the draw as your opponent is likely to realize you are going for a gun earlier. With behind the hip carry, your hand is obscured and you can establish grip before your opponent knows if you are giving up a wallet or producing a weapon.

AIWB is apparently faster in terms of raw speed, but you're giving up some reaction time on the other guy's side if he's watching you, which is when you need speed the most.

Now, that may change if you are forced to react from a seated position. I have not tried it myself, but it seems to be AIWB would be faster and more natural looking to access while seated then behind the hip carry. The question becomes how often does one have to defend from a seated position, and in those situations is standing or repositioning not an option? Seat belted in the car seems like a potential case where AIWB may very well be the best answer.

Retention I won't really comment on. I'm sure there are situations where both have an advantage over the other.

Every carry position has trade offs, situations where it shines and situations where it is less than optimal. What do you think your most likely scenario is where you must access the pistol quickly? Which carry method is best at that?

Ding, ding, ding... We have a winner.

I always think in terms of tactics when i carry, and always assume that some bad character has gotten the drop on me, and I will have to produce a firearm from stealth more than speed alone. If someone has asked me for my money in a robbery, they would naturally assume that I am reaching for my wallet and not my handgun at the 4 o'clock position with my body obscuring the view of said handgun.

 

[Dead Duck]

Don't Appendix Carry - You'll Shoot Your Head Off!

 

[GTM]

I was the other AIWB person in Coach's class with BBI a few weeks ago. I regularly practice dry fire and drawing from concealment, but for some reason that day I kept getting hung up in my shirt when drawing from concealment. Since that class I'm rethinking my setup. I'm think about continuing to carry at appendix with my G26/G19, but adding my G43 OWB at 4:00. This would allow me to have a BUG and give me choices in a situation of whether to draw from appendix, or draw from 4:00. In my mind this setup would also negate the need to carry a reload since either weapon would be considered my reload. The thinness of the G43 at 4:00 would be easily concealed and a G26 in appendix is easily concealed on me.

 

[rhino]

Jokes about my gear list aside, there is value to carrying both AIWB and 3-5 O'Clock at the same time. You have the advantages of both, you have a second gun (i.e. a backup), one of which you can access with your support side hand (AIWB) even if you're unable to reach the gun at 3-5 O'clock.

 

[dudley0]

Well I broke out the crossbreed holster and am carrying at 0400 for the day. Will see how it goes.

While I do understand the accessibility of having a pistol at 0400 and AIWB I must admit to having a couple issues with it.

First is the fact that I am then carrying more hardware which equals more weight. I carry daily, all day. I work in the construction fields and all that extra movement and such means a lot more hassle with extra stuff. With my body type and job I found that wearing a bug around the ankle gets in the way at times... and let's not mention trying to lay carpet with a FS gun at AIWB.

As mentioned before, I do not like to just start changing things up all the time. I need a set pattern to follow in case something drastic happens and I have to try and use muscle memory. I will take my AIWB holster and a copy of my EDC just in case I decide to go out and about. I am gonna need bigger pants...

Maybe if I got a pocket gun I could put it in my wallet pocket. But then we are back to beating the hell out of it on the jobsites where the situations exist.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Well I broke out the crossbreed holster and am carrying at 0400 for the day. Will see how it goes.

While I do understand the accessibility of having a pistol at 0400 and AIWB I must admit to having a couple issues with it.

First is the fact that I am then carrying more hardware which equals more weight. I carry daily, all day. I work in the construction fields and all that extra movement and such means a lot more hassle with extra stuff. With my body type and job I found that wearing a bug around the ankle gets in the way at times... and let's not mention trying to lay carpet with a FS gun at AIWB.

As mentioned before, I do not like to just start changing things up all the time. I need a set pattern to follow in case something drastic happens and I have to try and use muscle memory. I will take my AIWB holster and a copy of my EDC just in case I decide to go out and about. I am gonna need bigger pants...

Maybe if I got a pocket gun I could put it in my wallet pocket. But then we are back to beating the hell out of it on the jobsites where the situations exist.

I agree. Two IWB guns in a physically demanding job is probably more of a hassle then its worth. Desk jockies and the like can get by with it a lot easier. I'd also add that it could potentially make retention more difficult IF your opponent knew you were armed. I just don't think there's much I can't do with a full size at 4 o'clock and a smaller gun in the pocket or on the ankle. Winter time is coming, and I'll start carrying a 3rd smaller gun in my topcoat pocket as well.

 

[dudley0]

Couple days now wearing my FS M&P at 0400. Still not used to it. Before I was at 0300 and I can see this being a lot slower and a bit clumsier while getting my shirt out of the way.

Going to take a lot more practice before I am comfortable with the draw. Slipping it back that one hour (DST) does help conceal it more, so there is that.

I get to crawl around under a house today, so that will help me feel it out a little more as well.

 

[nakinate]

Can you? While under direct observation and with a weapon already on you, such as a street robbery?

In all fairness, if I have a gun pointed at me I'm probably better off complying or running. Drawing when a gun is stuck in your chest seems like a losing proposition no matter what position you carry in.

 

[dudley0]

So I have been carrying at 0400, IWB for a short bit now. It is comfortable and doesn't require as much extra real estate with the waist line in the pants as 0300 did.

Have a side job out in the country at some family property. Went out a couple times and before I started working I decided to do a little live fire practice.

Well today it was early and I had a light jacket on. Getting to the gun and getting close to on target was a chore. Maybe it is because of my over sized front end, but it definitely was cumbersome. Almost to the point where I considered moving to the 0300 position. This would be tougher to do with the pants I had on, so I waited.

I am still lugging around my AIWB holster in case I just decide to dump the concealed draw (which I stink at anyhow).

 

[BehindBlueI's]

In all fairness, if I have a gun pointed at me I'm probably better off complying or running. Drawing when a gun is stuck in your chest seems like a losing proposition no matter what position you carry in.

I disagree. You are welcome to ask the participants of my class (partnered with Coach) using real robberies and shootings as the basis for the exercises and see if you still feel the same way. Several of the scenarios include doing just that, and I can show you how those people won vs those who didn't, and I can explain why. In short, speed, surprise, ferocity of attack and using the OODA loop to your advantage. Running from a projectile weapon is a bad idea for several reasons, and we also get into that as well as how to gauge if compliance is the best option or not.