An OAL question...

[JJFII]

The problem is that you're trying to make sense of stupidity. Why is a Glock frame a firearm, but the barrel of a Ruger 22/45 is considered the firearm? Why does putting a forward grip on a pistol magically change it into an AOW? It's not limited to firearms, did you know that allowing a non US citizen to LOOK through a night vision device is illegal?

The point is, a lot of the rules are arbitrary and senseless. You have a few choices though...
1. Follow the rules
2. Ignore the rules
3. Ask them to change the rules <- Thats where I was going with this thread.

Has it been done? Is it worth the risk? I guess the answer is Yes and No.

 

[Trigger Time]

I know people are going to freak out over this so I am going to make it simple:

If your policy is the removal a MD, which is cosmetic, functional and a safety device, as well as a handguard that is cosmetic, functional and a safety device, why are you allowing a Stock, that is cosmetic, functional and a safety device? (AR15A2 stock)


If your answer is, "oh thank you for pointing that out, you now have to remove your stock (AR15A2) or remove that collapsible stock to expose the tube before measuring"... then your regulation has potentially turned millions of law abiding people into felons, because I bet there are millions of people who are using the 1"-6" of stock to make the OAL to the threads.

This is why you challenge regulations.

Actualy you arent making it simple. You are making it overcomplicated and you have even confused me on one of the actualy simplest things regarding firearms laws to understand.
Listen to what the guys have told you. They arent trying to preach to you. They're trying to help you and be cool with you.
You have a member above who told you he has friends in the ATF field office who have told him the way it is. It doesnt get much more clear than that. I love **** straight from the horses mouth because I can take it to the bank. No guesswork. No risking my freedom. I dont **** around at all when it comes to gun stuff and breaking laws especialy NFA law. Your whole world (if you're a gun hobbiest) Is over just like that if you make one mistake. This is one of the easiest things to get right and not have to worry about. Like a freebie. I'd love to be an NFA dealer but frankly I'm not because all of the red tape and risk to my freedom if I'd mess something up by accident and it scares the **** out of me. So I dont do it. Many other people here are the same way. We dont like the law but we follow it, or stay away from the parts that are confusing or up for interpretation.
No one here is trying to jam you up

 

[JJFII]

Actualy you arent making it simple. You are making it overcomplicated and you have even confused me on one of the actualy simplest things regarding firearms laws to understand.
Listen to what the guys have told you. They arent trying to preach to you. They're trying to help you and be cool with you.
You have a member above who told you he has friends in the ATF field office who have told him the way it is. It doesnt get much more clear than that. I love **** straight from the horses mouth because I can take it to the bank. No guesswork. No risking my freedom. I dont **** around at all when it comes to gun stuff and breaking laws especialy NFA law. Your whole world (if you're a gun hobbiest) Is over just like that if you make one mistake. This is one of the easiest things to get right and not have to worry about. Like a freebie. I'd love to be an NFA dealer but frankly I'm not because all of the red tape and risk to my freedom if I'd mess something up by accident and it scares the **** out of me. So I dont do it. Many other people here are the same way. We dont like the law but we follow it, or stay away from the parts that are confusing or up for interpretation.
No one here is trying to jam you up

Here is my issue with all of what you said....I am not looking for an answer here... its a question I am asking of the people who actually FIGHT gun laws... not a question I am asking for the people who just follow the herd and do as you are told.

I just came from a State where the CLEOs will look you right in the eye and tell you, "its the law, shut up and just do it because its what is best for you."

What are those laws...
1- You cannot be allowed to eject a magazine from a firearm by using your finger to push a button or lever.... Its a FELONY to own a non-registered semiautomatic rifle that has a detachable magazine.
2- If your firearm is under 30", its an AW that must have been registered years ago, so again...you are a Felon if you didnt.
3- Your magazines cant hold more than 10 rounds.
4- Your pistol cant have threads anywhere on the barrel.
5- blah blah blah

I can go on and on and on...All this because...PEOPLE SAID------>It doesnt get much more clear than that. I love **** straight from the horses mouth because I can take it to the bank. No guesswork. No risking my freedom. I dont **** around at all when it comes to gun stuff and breaking laws especialy NFA law. Your whole world (if you're a gun hobbiest) Is over just like that if you make one mistake. This is one of the easiest things to get right and not have to worry about. Like a freebie

I am not asking people to violate a law.
I am not asking to violate the law.
I am not wondering how to violate the law.


I wanted to find information on if someone had the stones to actually ask the AFT for a clear and defining reason for what they want for an OAL... and I guess the answer is, "No...no one here and No one in any other State has ever asked for an official explanation of why a REAR ACCESSORY is allowed to make up inches on OAL, but a FRONT ACCESSORY isnt.

From what I gather here, no one here really knows either.

The best answer I can get from here is from an LEO who's ATF buddy said because the law says "barrel"... and I can guarantee that is because the law was written when there were no Firearms with framing forward of the threaded muzzle. The reason you take the MD off is because, ITS AN ACCESSORY... but...so is a stock when the stock is not part of the structural frame of the firearm.

Rem700 vs AR15A2...

The rear of the Rem 700 is the actual stock because its part of the framing structure of the Receiver as is the forearm.
The rear of an AR15A2 is NOT the stock. The Stock is an accessory that covers over the extension tube which is up to 2" shorter than the Stock.

So with these facts in hand and acknowledged by all...
Why are we forced to remove handguards and muzzle devices but not stocks on all firearms to measure OAL?

again---- I am not looking for an answer here... its a question I am asking of the people who actually FIGHT gun laws... not a question I am asking for the people who just follow the herd.

 

[Trigger Time]

I dont know with regards to rifles
Different definitions different procedures I guess
For a pistol or a "firearm" the receiver extension (that's the tube the buffer and spring goes into, incase someone reading didnt know, which is perfectly fine) is required mechanically for a DI (direct impingement) AR, even with a side folder it is NOT safe to fire folded so this doesnt count as normal operation. (So it will be counted with the tube in OAL) They even print a warning on the device not to fire it folded. back in the day during the assault weapons ban when you first saw AR pistols popping up they only had stupid little tubes and that's what people cheaked or shouldered. Now they have Braces you can add but the atf probably havent changed their OAL rules to be up to date with things being added to the tube
It's probably as simple as that honestly. I dont think the average ATF person is out to get gun owners I really dont. I think a lot of them are gun owners too. I try to keep them (guys in the field) seperate in my mind when I speak about the alphabet soups. Politicians and beurocrats are the biggest threats to our freedoms. They are not shooters or if they are they only believe they should have them and not us peons, the working men and women.
As far as where you came from, commiefornia I'm assuming, the citizens there are slowly realizing they screwed up I think but I dont know if they can shift the political tide.
For me personaly, I dont buy illegal guns and i dont make them. 90% of gun owners also are very law abiding. (My estimate that's not an official number) If they pass a law turning me into a criminal overnight for somethjng I acquired legally I think thats wrong at the very foundation of what this republic was founded on. I guess people have choices to make
They can submit to these new state laws which have no federal bearing at all and become servants or they can refuse to submit. From the reports I've seen most people have refused to submit and arent registering or destroying or surrendering their items.
Or they can leave the state
If they stay I hope they are active politically to hopefully shift the tide back in favor of the constitution.

 

[Vigilant]

Here is my issue with all of what you said....I am not looking for an answer here... its a question I am asking of the people who actually FIGHT gun laws... not a question I am asking for the people who just follow the herd and do as you are told.

I just came from a State where the CLEOs will look you right in the eye and tell you, "its the law, shut up and just do it because its what is best for you."

What are those laws...
1- You cannot be allowed to eject a magazine from a firearm by using your finger to push a button or lever.... Its a FELONY to own a non-registered semiautomatic rifle that has a detachable magazine.
2- If your firearm is under 30", its an AW that must have been registered years ago, so again...you are a Felon if you didnt.
3- Your magazines cant hold more than 10 rounds.
4- Your pistol cant have threads anywhere on the barrel.
5- blah blah blah

I can go on and on and on...All this because...PEOPLE SAID------>It doesnt get much more clear than that. I love **** straight from the horses mouth because I can take it to the bank. No guesswork. No risking my freedom. I dont **** around at all when it comes to gun stuff and breaking laws especialy NFA law. Your whole world (if you're a gun hobbiest) Is over just like that if you make one mistake. This is one of the easiest things to get right and not have to worry about. Like a freebie

I am not asking people to violate a law.
I am not asking to violate the law.
I am not wondering how to violate the law.


I wanted to find information on if someone had the stones to actually ask the AFT for a clear and defining reason for what they want for an OAL... and I guess the answer is, "No...no one here and No one in any other State has ever asked for an official explanation of why a REAR ACCESSORY is allowed to make up inches on OAL, but a FRONT ACCESSORY isnt.

From what I gather here, no one here really knows either.

The best answer I can get from here is from an LEO who's ATF buddy said because the law says "barrel"... and I can guarantee that is because the law was written when there were no Firearms with framing forward of the threaded muzzle. The reason you take the MD off is because, ITS AN ACCESSORY... but...so is a stock when the stock is not part of the structural frame of the firearm.

Rem700 vs AR15A2...

The rear of the Rem 700 is the actual stock because its part of the framing structure of the Receiver as is the forearm.
The rear of an AR15A2 is NOT the stock. The Stock is an accessory that covers over the extension tube which is up to 2" shorter than the Stock.

So with these facts in hand and acknowledged by all...
Why are we forced to remove handguards and muzzle devices but not stocks on all firearms to measure OAL?

again---- I am not looking for an answer here... its a question I am asking of the people who actually FIGHT gun laws... not a question I am asking for the people who just follow the herd.

Ok, everytime some bubba ASKs the BATFE for something we get things like it was ok to shoulder a brace, now it’s not, now it is. The more people that bang on their door and ask them to look at things, the more they will actually look at things, and usually NOT for the better.

 

[JJFII]

Ok, everytime some bubba ASKs the BATFE for something we get things like it was ok to shoulder a brace, now it’s not, now it is. The more people that bang on their door and ask them to look at things, the more they will actually look at things, and usually NOT for the better.

Only, "not for the better" when you cant take them to court on it. That is why underground regulation needs to be fought.

BMV- The OAL of a car is measured from the radiator to the end of the tail pipe.

me- But my front bumper is forward of my Radiator?

BMV- Doesnt matter, remove the front bumper.

me-?..err ok.

Next guy - My tail pipe is directly behind my rear wheel.

BMV- That's ok, its a truck, measure from the rear bumper to the radiator, remove the front bumper if its forward of the radiator..that is your vehical's OAL.

me- I own a VW Bug.. The radiator is behind the engine 12 inches away from the tail pipe.

BMV...then your OAL is 12"

me - ??? so the OVER ALL LENGTH of my car is 12 inches ???