Another Church Carry Sticky Wicket

[Indy_Guy_77]

I've been contemplating something here lately...

Something that only has about 1% chance of being "OK"...ie "legal".

Given this image

one can plainly see two large buildings.

Both of these buildings are the same "entity" that have one general mailing address.

However, they have two completely separate parcels of property and are separated by a city street.

The building on the bottom of the photo (not the round one, goofy) has both a licensed day care / pre-school on it's property.

The building to the north, even though it's still the same church, does NOT have a licensed day care / pre-school on it's property.

My question to the "INGO Lawyers", would a weapon secured in a vehicle in that NORTH parking lot still be illegal given the separation of the buildings / parking lots via the roadway?

My inkling is "no" due to both properties being owned by the same church which does have the school in it.

But I'm not sure.

Thoughts?

-J-

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

So as to not make the OP more difficult to read, I'm choosing another post in which to offer another variation to this conundrum:

Let's say that, for some reason, two or three large churches in the Indy area, each with their associated private schools, decided to go in together and buy a large parcel of land that borders the Hoosier National Forest. They want this land to quasi-develop as a "retreat center".

Now, would that parcel of land then be considered "school property" because it is owned by churches that have schools, even though it's separated by 100 miles?

I understand the parcel being "school property" if being used for a bona-fide school function.

But what if you got permission to camp there with your family for the weekend, no others around. What then?

-J-

 

[indytechnerd]

Well, having no idea where you're talking about and no dog in this fight, I'd say park to the west in the parking lot for the Gymnastics studio.

 

[eldirector]

North lot (church only) is fine.

South lot (school) is not.

The key is two separate parcels. I would be that they do indeed have separate addresses, though they may only use one in practice. They are clearly separated by a public right of way. For tax, liability, insurance, etc... purposes, they are likely considered a separate entity as well.

Give me an address and/or name, and I'll go look it up.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

North lot (church only) is fine.

South lot (school) is not.

The key is two separate parcels. I would be that they do indeed have separate addresses, though they may only use one in practice. They are clearly separated by a public right of way. For tax, liability, insurance, etc... purposes, they are likely considered a separate entity as well.

Give me an address and/or name, and I'll go look it up.

Yes, for "911" purposes, there are indeed two separate addresses.

 

[mrjarrell]

Park and carry at church, avoid the school. I'd be willing to bet you're good to go. That road makes a world of difference.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

I suppose I wasn't very descriptive in my OP.

The building to the south is where most of the "church activities" take place. Also the building where the "school" is.

The building on the north side is the community building...gyms...weight room...community rooms... Also it's where the jr. high and HS have their youth-group activities.

So, at least by the consensus of the few posters so far, I may very well be able to leave a gun in the car if I park north and walk south...

Another instance of the law really mucking something up due to it's vague-ness, eh?

-J-

 

[jedi]

As others have stated you need to find how the city (zoning board) is defining this area. I had a similar question here (https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...self_defense/76519-where_does_school_end.html) in which the gym/hall rental is across the street from the school/chruch and the "land" it sits on also has the town park.

In doing some research I found out that for zoning purposes the Town of Griffith considers both parcels as a single unit (even though there is a PUBLIC street there) all owned by St. Mary's Church and School. Thus making the entire area (minus where the public park is) off limits.

So either ask the zoning board or look at the zoing board map and see what it has it classifed as. Once you know that then you can plan.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Just looked it up...

They do have different parcel ID numbers according to the Beacon site...

Hmmm... Interesting...

 

[DRob]

Schools

Are all schools really schools in this situation? That is.......does the law pertain to private schools the same as public schools? I don't know but hoping a real attorney will have the answer.

 

[jedi]

Are all schools really schools in this situation? That is.......does the law pertain to private schools the same as public schools? I don't know but hoping a real attorney will have the answer.

A "school" by defintiion for guns in Indiana is the following:
- day care
- grades pre-K, K, 1 thru 12

It does not matter if the "school" is public or private.
The "schools" primary function must be to teach BTW.

So colleges, universitys, home-schooling and sunday school (bible class) do not fall under the school rule.

Now if a bible class is held on a school property where day care, K-12 is done then it's a no-no for guns since a "school" is a "school" is a "school" (ie the bldg) 24/7. Meaning that it does not matter if the school is in session (ie kids in school) it's always nono land.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I suppose I wasn't very descriptive in my OP.

The building to the south is where most of the "church activities" take place. Also the building where the "school" is.

The building on the north side is the community building...gyms...weight room...community rooms... Also it's where the jr. high and HS have their youth-group activities.

So, at least by the consensus of the few posters so far, I may very well be able to leave a gun in the car if I park north and walk south...

Another instance of the law really mucking something up due to it's vague-ness, eh?

-J-

Hmmm... I would say that knowing this information, that school activities regularly take place on both parcels?

IMHO, that would make both parcels "school property" and they would both be off limits.

 

[rmabrey]

The building to the south is where most of the "church activities" take place. Also the building where the "school" is.

The building on the north side is the community building...gyms...weight room...community rooms... Also it's where the jr. high and HS have their youth-group activities.



-J-

I think this makes it off limits. INAL but seems pretty clear.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Hmmm... I would say that knowing this information, that school activities regularly take place on both parcels?

IMHO, that would make both parcels "school property" and they would both be off limits.

I think this makes it off limits. INAL but seems pretty clear.

As far as I know, "school activities" only take place in the south building where their classrooms are. But they may very well take walks to the other buildings to utilize the gymnasium. Of that, I am not sure.

And rmabrey, "youth group" stuff does NOT make something a school. There is a relatively narrow set of code that defines what a school is. And if "Sunday School" doesn't meet the definition, then a Saturday evening church service for the Jr. and Sr. High kids doesn't either.

 

[Renegade1978]

I'm a pastor, and I'd like to start the "Church of the Open Carry."

 

[jedi]

As far as I know, "school activities" only take place in the south building where their classrooms are. But they may very well take walks to the other buildings to utilize the gymnasium. Of that, I am not sure.

And rmabrey, "youth group" stuff does NOT make something a school. There is a relatively narrow set of code that defines what a school is. And if "Sunday School" doesn't meet the definition, then a Saturday evening church service for the Jr. and Sr. High kids doesn't either.

Hum.. not so sure & by that I mean the law is grey in this area and we don't have any law cases yet on it.

IC 35-47-9-2
Possession of firearms on school property, at school function, or on school bus; felony
Sec. 2. A person who possesses a firearm:
(1) in or on school property;
(2) in or on property that is being used by a school for a school function; or
(3) on a school bus;
commits a Class D felony.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.11.


It can be argued that the church when being used by the seniors (as in the school is doing a function) is now off limits to guns per the item in red.

Again there is no current case law on this nor any pending cases that I am aware of. IANAL

 

[Joe Williams]

I think this makes it off limits. INAL but seems pretty clear.

I think it makes it off limits only during those school functions.

 

[rmabrey]

It may very well be legal to have a gun on the north property, but you said it is where jr. high and high school have their youth group activities, which to me implies it is a school function. I agree with Joe that is is probably not off limits all the time, but more than likely during those school functions

 

[CountryBoy19]

Hum.. not so sure & by that I mean the law is grey in this area and we don't have any law cases yet on it.

IC 35-47-9-2
Possession of firearms on school property, at school function, or on school bus; felony
Sec. 2. A person who possesses a firearm:
(1) in or on school property;
(2) in or on property that is being used by a school for a school function; or
(3) on a school bus;
commits a Class D felony.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.11.


It can be argued that the church when being used by the seniors (as in the school is doing a function) is now off limits to guns per the item in red.

Again there is no current case law on this nor any pending cases that I am aware of. IANAL

It may very well be legal to have a gun on the north property, but you said it is where jr. high and high school have their youth group activities, which to me implies it is a school function. I agree with Joe that is is probably not off limits all the time, but more than likely during those school functions

I think it could be easily argued that the "youth-group" isn't a school function, and that it is a church function. The fact that he said Jr/Sr High kids just means that is the age group that the "youth-activities" are targeted towards.

IMHO, you need to be absolutely certain that the facilities in that building are NOT used during school hours for any normal school activities. If that is the case, then IMHO you are likely GTG carrying there when the facilities are not being used for a school function.

 

[jedi]

I think it makes it off limits only during those school functions.

Yes joe agree with you there. My fingers and brain are not on the same wavelenght today.

Yes when the kiddies are on the property for anything then I think the property is a school per the def. It's a gray area in our law and has been talked about here before.

Cause by that reasoning when a school takes a field trip on a WED to the INDY ZOO and you are also there with your family (not part of school) and are CC are you now brekaing the law since the INDY ZOO has not "magically become a school" per the way the law is written?

(Don't answer it's a debate for another thread but it shows how gray the text of the law is and how no in court case has addresses it yet).

Best is to have that law just tossed off the books!