Antibiotics

[sgreen3]

do you think we Are close to another worldwide outbreak or massive killoff? Due to so many resistant bacterias? Are you seeing superviruses? For me I think this is a big concern especially if the power grid went down even in half the country for a week or even two or more. The unsanitary conditions that would be unavoidable and the lack of responders due to such a large area.
I had started (a couple years ago) stocking up on the white suits (sorry I can't spell it; tyvex? I'd have to break a Mylar seal to see the name) also masks and face shields and heavy duty cut resistant gloves and leather gloves and rolls of duct tape. Just in case. I got them right so if we don't use them no harm done I'm just out alittle money that was worth the precaution. Also I can make our own bleach using pool chemicals as needed since store bought bleach only lasts a very short time on the shelf. I bought trays to use for disinfecting shoes when someone walks inside a building or tent ect (if shtf) just as a precaution. Also lots of alcohol.
very interested in hearing any advice you may have on the subject of ways to avoid diseases and infections ect. Thank you for the good advice and first hand experiences so far

Thankfully I only deal with bacteria, virology is a whole nother animal...Do I think we're close to massive kill off?... Not really per say, I do however think for those that are immunocompromised and younger people these types of issues become very sever. Now with that said if we keep going the way we're going with the abuse we use and self medication that we do as a society then yes its very possible. The thing about bacteria is they adapt and overcome very well as their "generation mutations" can happen very quickly unlike ours as humans.
I can speak from personal experience that we see daily various resistant strains more so then even when I first started and I'm not that old. We now see CRE (Carbapenum Resistant Enterobacteriace) isolates of about 2+ a month. That's absolutely unheard of even 5-10 years ago. Those infections are extremely sever as Carbapenums are the "Big Guns" when it comes to antibiotics, there is nothing stronger!

We see MRSA isolates on a daily basis, and believe me when I say MRSA as an infection is almost laughable to some of the other resistant bugs. I can tell you after working up a patient sample and getting the antibiotic results and seeing that all drugs tested for are "Resistant" so what do you do when nothing will work any more. Thankfully those are still pretty rare but its only a matter of time. Keep in mind there hasn't been a any new antibiotic classes introduced for patient use since the '70s if that kind of puts the severity of the situation into perspective.

Honestly if it were me Id take the same approach, Id invest in disinfectant supplies, face masks, gloves or even respirators. Antibiotic ointment would be really good to keep as well as bandages and alcohol pads. I would be more concerned with treating an abrasion or cut in a SHTF situation than I would any type of bacterial respiratory pathogen, likely if its airborn its going to be viral and the antibiotics arnt going to help any way... Those suits you talked about would be a great addition to kit, one thing to remember antibiotics are meant to assist the bodies natural innate immune system not take its place. The human body is an amazing thing and will clear most infections on its own provided the patient is in good health to begin with. So let the body do its job, its kind of a use it or loose it kind of thing.

Hope this helps and your very welcome...

 

[rhino]

Being someone who deals with antibiotics on a daily basis in my line of work as a clinical microbiologist, these types of threads just bother me to no end. There are more reasons to not take or stock up on antibiotics than there are to do so. The only thing I can say as someone whos had to set through a ridiculous amount of schooling is do your research on the subject, if you self medicate with one of these and you have an infection in which that class of drug doesn't cover, not only have you failed to treat the infection but there's a good chance you'll make yourself sicker and could potentially die as a result. Not to mention this is a way of creating increased resistance to other strains of bacteria. To which at that point there will be no treatment available and I'm hear to tell ya its the most sad thing to see when testing is complete on a specimen and all the antibiotics come off resistant.....

Trust me when I say its not the Physician whos making the choice of antibiotic therapy, the lab scientist's (such as myself in what I do) give the pharmacists as to what antimicrobials are susceptible or resistant to certain drug, then the pharmacist will recommend dosage and class to the physician, the physician will treat off the information the we in the micro lab and the pharmacy has given him or her.... Not talking about prescribing for viral infections, all be it that is a HUGE problem that needs to stop (but patients are as much to blame for demanding antibiotics for every cough or sniffle they get as it is the physicians that prescribe them). If you treat a bacterial infection caused by say a certain Gram-negative infection with drugs used to treat Gram-positive you have an antimicrobial fail situation, which can lead to increase resistance, along with decreased normal flora and the over growth of the principal pathogen.. An that's just the start, if your unfortunately enough to be infected with a resistant strain of particular organism (which sadly is seen more and more) the antibiotics your going to have on had that's either oral or even if your lucky enough to get ahold of some injectable wont treat it anyway, so your just killing off good bacteria that's actually protecting you for nothing....

That is excellent advice.

For antibiotics to be truly effective (and safe), you need cultures of the infections analyzed at least to the point of gram-negative or gram-positive. At least then you know which group(s) of broad spectrum antibiotics will be most likely to help. Physicians often prescribe based on the location of the infection and/or symptoms that they recognize due to years of experience, which can actually work pretty well . . . because they have years of experience. There are "usual suspects" for UTIs, lower respiratory infections, etc. because they tend to live in certain areas of your body and cause common infection. They're also usually dealing with things that will probably get better in a healthy individual if left alone, but the antibiotics will speed the process.

Self-medicating can introduce new issues as well. For example, if you kill everything in your gut that helps you maintain a normal digestive process, you could get diarrhea the likes of which some people have never encountered. That can be a huge, life-threatening problem in a situation with limited resources. If at the same time you do not reduce the population of the pathogen, you still have that problem as well.

If you have something that is actually killing you (like you're already septic) and there is no other recourse, I can see taking a chance on something that kills a lot of different things like Cipro or Z'max, but I'd still want to do my best to narrow it down.

Knowing how and when to use antibiotics is very important, but it's just as important to know when not to use them.

 

[rhino]

Thankfully I only deal with bacteria, virology is a whole nother animal...Do I think we're close to massive kill off?... Not really per say, I do however think for those that are immunocompromised and younger people these types of issues become very sever. Now with that said if we keep going the way we're going with the abuse we use and self medication that we do as a society then yes its very possible. The thing about bacteria is they adapt and overcome very well as their "generation mutations" can happen very quickly unlike ours as humans.
I can speak from personal experience that we see daily various resistant strains more so then even when I first started and I'm not that old. We now see CRE (Carbapenum Resistant Enterobacteriace) isolates of about 2+ a month. That's absolutely unheard of even 5-10 years ago. Those infections are extremely sever as Carbapenums are the "Big Guns" when it comes to antibiotics, there is nothing stronger!

We see MRSA isolates on a daily basis, and believe me when I say MRSA as an infection is almost laughable to some of the other resistant bugs. I can tell you after working up a patient sample and getting the antibiotic results and seeing that all drugs tested for are "Resistant" so what do you do when nothing will work any more. Thankfully those are still pretty rare but its only a matter of time. Keep in mind there hasn't been a any new antibiotic classes introduced for patient use since the '70s if that kind of puts the severity of the situation into perspective.

Honestly if it were me Id take the same approach, Id invest in disinfectant supplies, face masks, gloves or even respirators. Antibiotic ointment would be really good to keep as well as bandages and alcohol pads. I would be more concerned with treating an abrasion or cut in a SHTF situation than I would any type of bacterial respiratory pathogen, likely if its airborn its going to be viral and the antibiotics arnt going to help any way... Those suits you talked about would be a great addition to kit, one thing to remember antibiotics are meant to assist the bodies natural innate immune system not take its place. The human body is an amazing thing and will clear most infections on its own provided the patient is in good health to begin with. So let the body do its job, its kind of a use it or loose it kind of thing.

Hope this helps and your very welcome...

More good advice.

Wash your hands, people, often and properly. Good hygiene isn't an option when you have limited resources.

 

[sgreen3]

That is excellent advice.

For antibiotics to be truly effective (and safe), you need cultures of the infections analyzed at least to the point of gram-negative or gram-positive. At least then you know which group(s) of broad spectrum antibiotics will be most likely to help. Physicians often prescribe based on the location of the infection and/or symptoms that they recognize due to years of experience, which can actually work pretty well . . . because they have years of experience. There are "usual suspects" for UTIs, lower respiratory infections, etc. because they tend to live in certain areas of your body and cause common infection. They're also usually dealing with things that will probably get better in a healthy individual if left alone, but the antibiotics will speed the process.

Self-medicating can introduce new issues as well. For example, if you kill everything in your gut that helps you maintain a normal digestive process, you could get diarrhea the likes of which some people have never encountered. That can be a huge, life-threatening problem in a situation with limited resources. If at the same time you do not reduce the population of the pathogen, you still have that problem as well.

If you have something that is actually killing you (like you're already septic) and there is no other recourse, I can see taking a chance on something that kills a lot of different things like Cipro or Z'max, but I'd still want to do my best to narrow it down.

Knowing how and when to use antibiotics is very important, but it's just as important to know when not to use them.

Yes and usually due to a subsequent C. diff infection from the lower than normal flora in the gut.

 

[sgreen3]

More good advice.

Wash your hands, people, often and properly. Good hygiene isn't an option when you have limited resources.

Thanks and I agree properly washing your hands is always the first line of defense.. You can always stock up on hand sanitizer or like I mentioned alcohol wipes as a disinfectant for your hands in a SHTF situation...

 

[HoughMade]

With an open wound? Clean well. Other than that, steer clear of sanitizers and anti-bacterial anything.

 

[Trigger Time]

With an open wound? Clean well. Other than that, steer clear of sanitizers and anti-bacterial anything.

ive heard that before regarding everyday all day use. People kill off necessary bacteria or whatever it is. Sound advice

 

[sgreen3]

An open would in the field should either be irrigated with a sterile water/saline and bandaged or alcohol and bandaged...

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

(but patients are as much to blame for demanding antibiotics for every cough or sniffle they get as it is the physicians that prescribe them)

I agree that way too many patients demand antibiotics, but to say that they are as much to blame for resistance in bacteria is a bit of a cop-out.

If antibiotics weren't controlled and they were available off the shelf, then I might agree with you. But for gosh sakes, what's the purpose for the prescription if the doctor doesn't have the responsibility to prescribe antibiotics only when appropriate? With prescribing privilege (and making the big bucks) comes responsibility.

I remember the best seats I've ever had at a Pacers game were VIP tickets that a drug rep gave to my dad. I always thought those drug reps were the nicest people I'd ever met. They were always impeccably dressed, and they would always tell my dad what a smart and handsome son he had (imagine my dismay when I got old enough to realize that they were just saying those things to butter up my dad).

 

[JettaKnight]

I agree that way too many patients demand antibiotics, but to say that they are as much to blame for resistance in bacteria is a bit of a cop-out.

If antibiotics weren't controlled and they were available off the shelf, then I might agree with you. But for gosh sakes, what's the purpose for the prescription if the doctor doesn't have the responsibility to prescribe antibiotics only when appropriate? With prescribing privilege (and making the big bucks) comes responsibility.

I remember the best seats I've ever had at a Pacers game were VIP tickets that a drug rep gave to my dad. I always thought those drug reps were the nicest people I'd ever met. They were always impeccably dressed, and they would always tell my dad what a smart and handsome son he had (imagine my dismay when I got old enough to realize that they were just saying those things to butter up my dad).

When patients constantly yell, "gimme an antibiotic, I have the sniffles!", even the stoutest of MD wears down to the point where it's just too much...

Now if patients were informed and reasonable, then I'd agree and say it's a cop-out. But since we live in a real world, it's a valid argument.

 

[rhino]

With an open wound? Clean well. Other than that, steer clear of sanitizers and anti-bacterial anything.

Washing with soap and plenty of clean water is about the best thing you can do for a minor wound.

And soaps are inherently antibacterial even if they do not have triclosan or benzalkonium chloride added to them. Anionic surfactants (which soaps and detergents are) lyse bacteria pretty well.

 

[sgreen3]

When patients constantly yell, "gimme an antibiotic, I have the sniffles!", even the stoutest of MD wears down to the point where it's just too much...

Now if patients were informed and reasonable, then I'd agree and say it's a cop-out. But since we live in a real world, it's a valid argument.

^^ Exactly what Id said myself in rebuttal...

 

[JettaKnight]

Washing with soap and plenty of clean water is about the best thing you can do for a minor wound.

And soaps are inherently antibacterial even if they do not have triclosan or benzalkonium chloride added to them. Anionic surfactants (which soaps and detergents are) lyse bacteria pretty well.

Yup. That's why you should avoid the "anti-bacterial" label - those chemicals are no good for society's long-term health.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

When patients constantly yell, "gimme an antibiotic, I have the sniffles!", even the stoutest of MD wears down to the point where it's just too much...

Now if patients were informed and reasonable, then I'd agree and say it's a cop-out. But since we live in a real world, it's a valid argument.

^^ Exactly what Id said myself in rebuttal...

I realize, when I think about it, that the argument about who gets the most blame for antibiotic-resistant bacteria is, for our purposes here, not really very productive, so if you guys think patients are more culpable and I think that doctors and drug companies are more culpable, I'm willing to agree to disagree (unless someone really wants to keep arguing, in which case, I'm totally game )

sgreen, like Rino said, you've given us some good information and I'll echo my earlier post that my preps don't include any antibiotics, but do include lots and lots of bar soaps, liquid soaps, powdered soaps, betadyne, borax, boric acid, baking soda, grain alcohol, and isopropyl alcohol, along with my other first-aid stuff. I also have some hypochlorite tablets, but even after sealing them in their original containers, inside Ziploc bags, and then into larger plastic jars, some of the chlorine seems to gas off, so I'm getting rid of that.

 

[Clarity]

I can understand and respect a decision not to have antibiotics, but I will still seek some for the most dire situations, and keep my reference book on how to administer them. Antibiotics also have trade value, and you may have access to a doc that doesn't have any of her/his own to administer. Just like potassium iodide, or a variety of other preps, its kept for the rare "what ifs".

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.




On a related note, I was listening to a woman on the radio some time back and she was talking about antibiotics and resistant bacteria. I was really interested in the subject, but she pronounced the word antibeeyotics. After listening to her say that word like that about 100 times, I found myself fantasizing about looking on line on the station's website, and finding out who the woman was, and where she lived.......

And, that's totally not me at all.

 

[rhino]

ann-tee-bee-oh-tix is probably a more correct pronunciation than what we usually say, even if it's annoying.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Get on YT and check out Dr. Bones and nurse Amy's videos , lots of good info on what to do when SHTF and fish antibiotics .

You don't have to have a lab or be a Dr. but you DO have to educate yourself about the " normal " types on injuries/ illnesses that are most likely , like the differences between a cold , flu or pneumonia .

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

ann-tee-bee-oh-tix is probably a more correct pronunciation than what we usually say, even if it's annoying.

Did you learn that in Beeology class?

 

[rhino]

Did you learn that in Beeology class?

Yays. Ee deed!