Any Word on ND/UD at IAC?

[HoughMade]

...I will never relent.

That much is certain.

 

[HubertGummer]

It was your guess, which means it was based on your reasoning, your definitions, your mindset, not anyone's actions. I want you to attempt to identify the basis of your guess such that you prove this to yourself and might understand why and how I'm attempting to expose it as a problem which only masquerades as a solution.



Just go ahead and explain what you meant by unloaded and treated as such, it came from you regardless.
Explain how and why you equate "safely" with "like they are loaded" because logically, you would then tend to make the mistake of equating "unsafely" with "like they aren't loaded" instead of what unsafely actually means - negligently, recklessly, dangerously, foolishly, criminally, irresponsibly.

I don't equate unloaded with safe. Quite the opposite. Since I assume all guns are loaded, I treat every gun like it has an ability to kill whether I know it to be loaded or not because no matter what, its a loaded gun to me.




Or, he concluded it himself from getting away with touching the stove a few times and understanding that it's not always hot. His luck ran out that day and his poor stove handling resulted in some damage. We all know it could have been much worse. I hope he will resolve to handle stoves like they're stoves from now on. Stove's only got one job.

yes, he didn't treat his gun safely because he assumed it was unloaded and obviously he treats his unloaded guns differently even though he shouldn't. Had he assumed all guns were loaded, he would have never(hopefully) thought to treat the gun differently than a loaded gun.



Your notion that unloaded guns may be treated as such (differently than loaded guns, something less than safely). This seems to be your mindset and a very popular one.

I never said unloaded guns should be treated differently. Quite the opposite again as since I assume guns are always loaded I always treat an unloaded gun like I would a loaded one.

I simply want to expose it to you (and everyone else who holds that popular notion in the process) ...and I want to tear it down.

I instruct people to handle all guns safely, that safe gun handling is not just for "loaded" guns. I don't even introduce them to the concept or notion that they should base their safe gun handling on loaded assumptions or checks of its status. I know what they'll mistakenly conclude if I do so ...and I know that will tempt them into mistakes of judgment and then, mistakes of action.
again, if you assume guns are always loaded you will always (hopefully) handle the gun with the respect it commands.

Mistakes of action have the potential to be disastrous, tragic.

Checking a gun's loaded status should be the third thing they process when they handle any gun.

That's the thing. If you assume a gun is loaded, you don't have to check and and see if its loaded...you assume it is and you can proceed to clear it when it is safe to do so.

If they only process 1 step, I want it to be the golden rule of safe gun handling, keep it pointed in a safe direction!
That's the one that reduces tragedies and protects the most important stuff from ever being targeted: people who don't need shot.

If they process the 2nd step, they'll send far fewer unintentional rounds in that safe direction and hopefully only need to patch holes in things when they choose for some reason to ignore it and shoot when they weren't ready to.

If they followed along and made it to step 3, they are ready to determine if they'd like to safely unload or load the gun they've already been handling safely in order to get to this step. Excellent, I don't want them skipping those other 2 in their rush to get here and I don't want them to abandon those other 2 even if they choose to unload it now. Gun's still only got one job.



It's shaping up nicely, thank you for continuing the exercise. I am more interested and vested in advancing gun safety than arguing for the sake of arguing, so please, consider and give me your honest thoughts, even if it's via PM, this topic is more important than any one of us.

Again, see bold. I'm not sure exactly what we are arguing anymore. I think maybe we are on the same page, just wording it differently...but IDK, I'm probably wrong on that, too.

 

[bobzilla]

That much is certain.

I'm guessing ATM isn't a follower of the "pick your battles" philosophy.

 

[HubertGummer]

I'm guessing ATM isn't a follower of the "pick your battles" philosophy.

Appearantly I need to practice picking my battles more cause I suck at it...

 

[ATM]

Again, see bold. I'm not sure exactly what we are arguing anymore. I think maybe we are on the same page, just wording it differently...but IDK, I'm probably wrong on that, too.

Your system of safe gun handling relies upon assumptions and fails on assumptions. The most popular excuse given for unsafe actions amounts to admitting an assumption (or the lack of one you require).

A better system of safe gun handling does not rely upon assumptions and does not fail on assumptions, it doesn't recognize any assumptions (or the lack of any assumptions) as an excuse for unsafe actions. Admitting any assumptions would amount to a non-sequitur when addressing and correcting the actual unsafe actions.

Of course we're on the same page, but we are miles apart in perspective. Again, thank you for continuing the exercise.

 

[indiucky]

I'm just glad we finally have a thread where we can discuss the esoteric and philosophical nature of the 4 rules as it pertains to a safe mindset.

Lord knows we've never had that​ opportunity before.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Glad nobody was hurt! Years ago when I worked at a Chevrolet dealership somebody failed to turn in a rental. It was found at a cheap motel 20 minutes away, empty bottle of colt 45 on the floorboard next to an empty pack of marlboro reds. Three bullet holes in the door/windshield, no blood. So many questions and never answers!

That's a decent Saturday night in Lafayette.

 

[indiucky]

Years ago when I worked at a Chevrolet dealership somebody failed to turn in a rental. It was found at a cheap motel 20 minutes away, empty bottle of colt 45 on the floorboard next to an empty pack of marlboro reds. Three bullet holes in the door/windshield, no blood. So many questions and never answers!

Did you happen to find the brass Zippo lighter???? PM me and I'll tell you what's engraved on the side....