AR 15 info.

[grizman]

I see remarks to the effect Armalite americas oldest AR maker, been building them longer than Colt, the original they know them best,ETC ETC. Stoner worked for Armalite when he designed the AR. He When his design won the trials Armalite could not produce the rifles per the requirements of the contract. The contract and the patent rights were sold to Colt! Colt became the sole manufacturer of the Stoner design AR15/M16 rifle untill Colt allowed the patent right to expire in the 80's. That means no one but Colt built civilian AR pattern rifles until the 80's. the oldest contiuous manufacturer of AR rifle behind Colt is Bushmaster.
As of late there are alot of new players in the AR game. To be a true "top teir" AR requires following mil spec in all aspects except for slect fire fire controls and barrel length.
We mostly talk mil spec in reguards to M4 carbine selection. That will be our example group. We have all seen the "chart". The biggest shake up in the civilian market right now is the Spikes ST-15 M4 LE. It is the same rifle as the Gold STD Colt 6920, two main differences are Spikes has superb customer service and a price some $400 dollars less. The other top tier Ar makers have models with upgrades to the sights hand gaurds and stocks. But the base rifle is built to the same spec.
.
The players in teir 1 by mil spec compliance are;
BCM
Colt
Daniel Defense
LMT
Noveske
Sabre Defense
Spikes Tactical
Their are fine rifles out there not in the above traditional M4 envelope that would be dependable battle rifles that need mentioned here.
KAC Knights Armament
LWRC
POF

Tier 2 guns are built by most of the companies from vendor supplied parts using parts not up to mil spec. Lesser steel in the barrels, different bolt configurations and rifling twist rates other than 1 in 7".
Aramalite
Bushmaster
CMMG
Del Ton
DPMS
Double Star
Para USA
Ruger
RRA
S&W
Stag
These represent the Good and Better of the production guns in the M4 envelope. These represent the only M4 with time proven records that should be considered for home protection carbines. If it isn't on this list then it is a unkown quality or a poor quality rifle that should only be a range plinker!

Then we have the Les Baer and Wilson combat rifles. Fine quality rifles but not a battle rifle.

This is only the personal opinion of an idiviual who spent 22 years using a Rifle of this design in one form or another as a working tool. The names are alphbetical not in order of quality in teir 2. Teir one is a toss up!
I currently own 5 AR15's of M4 configuration, two pre 86 selectfire AR's both are safe,semi,full auto in M4 configurations, several full sizes AR's all in 5.56. I have AR's in 6.8 spc, 308 and a couple of other calibers. Over the years I have owned hundreds of AR's of all makes and models. I am not new at the AR game. I prefer the teir one guns as I am known to be hard on them! for the average Joe anything in the Teir 2 list will do the job though you may have issues to resolve before its GTG.

 

[LPMan59]

 

[esrice]

I agree with most of your position.

I would add BCM to your Tier 1 list.

I was also under the impression that AR does NOT stand for Assault Rifle. Could you link your source?

 

[grizman]

Enjoy that popcorn! the whole point of this post is to get people looking at the specs not the name! That and to point out that a S&W,RRA or an Armalite aren't better than than a Stag or a Bushmaster buy any measureable degree. and visa versa.

 

[grizman]

I agree with most of your position.

I would add BCM to your Tier 1 list.

I was also under the impression that AR does NOT stand for Assault Rifle. Could you link your source?

The military called it assult rifle 15 during the trials. It is also stated as Automatic rifle 15 at times. Some of the early literature from the stock that changed hands when Colt purchased the patent had armalite on it. Back then the when a company stepped up and said we would like to submit a weapon for the trials they were given a designator to enter it under. In this case it was AR15. There are references to it both ways online. Makes very little difference to me.

 

[cosermann]

Do you have any authoritative references for your historical assertions?

I see from time to time threads that state AR means Armalite rifle. Incorrect, The designation AR-15 means Assult Rifle 15, the designation assigned by the military to Eugene Stoner's entry into the 1950's trials for a weapon to replace the M1 carbine!

If this is true, then the wikipedia AR-15 entry needs some correction (and the one for the M16 too)

AR-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Secondly I see remarks to the effect Armalite americas oldest AR maker, been building them longer than Colt, the original they know them best,ETC ETC. Stoner worked for Armalite but did not design the AR for armalite. He designed and patented it on his own and allowed Armalite to produce samples for the military trials. When his design won the trials Armalite could not produce the rifles per the requirements of the contract. Stoner sold the contract and the patent right to Colt! . . .

Also, there's some disconnect with the Eugene Stoner entry.

Eugene Stoner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And the Armalite entry.

ArmaLite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to mention resources on ARFCOm, globalsecurity.org, and elsewhere/etc. This is what we call convergence. Are all these resoures incorrect?

I think the problem some folks are having is getting over some of the apparent historical inaccuracies in your initial post (i.e. the AR name, "carbine" trials, who designed it, who sold it, etc.) which seem to detract from the credibility of the point you're trying to make (which is generally valid).

 

[malern28us]

I wanted to just add to this....arent you supposed to state facts to support your stories..... I mean statements.

 

[Cwood]

Straight From Armalite's History pdf

http://www.armalite.com/images/Library%5CAL%20HISTORY%20COPY%202.pdf

In 1954, Eugene Stoner, who served in the Marines during World War II and who was something of an ordnance
expert, became Chief Engineer for ArmaLite. Stoner had been working on small arms independently since WWII.
Stoner’s patents form the basis of much of ArmaLite’s work.

Early Colt AR-15s, their magazines, and their operators manuals were marked with ArmaLite’s name. Colt’s
retained the AR-15 designation on commercial rifles. To this day Colt’s has a model designation with the letters
AR, which stands for “ArmaLite”.

 

[grizman]

I wanted to just add to this....arent you supposed to state facts to support your stories..... I mean statements.

Until I can find the sites to link to on the info I read ,I have edited the posts so as not to distract people from its intent. Incase thats not clear enough It is If you own one of the Tier 2 rifles on the list it is the same as the rest of the tier 2's quality wise. We all understand that every company has a stinker once in awhile. Even the tier 1 guys!

My LMT LM308MWSF is back for the second time for the same problem. It appears it is capable of firing just as the bolt lugs lock not after. I get stuck casings during rapid fire never in slow fire. Timing issue. They will get it this time I am sure. We are talking about a rifle that cost enough to buy 4 Spikes m4's!
Now back to our respective days!

 

[dom1104]

 

[Cwood]

Stoner worked for Armalite when he designed the AR. He When his design won the trials Armalite could not produce the rifles per the requirements of the contract. The contract and the patent rights were sold to Colt!

I still find some issues with the accuracy of this statement.

per Armalite's History

In the end, the AR-10 wasn’t able to catch up; the T-44 was adopted as the M-14 rifle in 1959. The AR-10 fell
victim to both its own weaknesses, normal in early models of any product, prejudice within the Army Ordnance
Corps, and the head start of the other rifles.
Based on what they saw in the AR-10, however, other Army officials asked ArmaLite to develop a smaller version
of the AR-10 in 1956. The ensuing rifle was called the AR-15. Like the AR-10, it was a developmental model. Not
only was it too late to be considered against the T-44 and T-48, it didn’t match the long-range marksmanship
doctrine of the day.

 

[grizman]

Straight From Armalite's History pdf

http://www.armalite.com/images/Library%5CAL%20HISTORY%20COPY%202.pdf

This was not meant as a Armalite Bashing thread. It is somewhat misleading reading that "history" as it never states that Armalite built no AR15's for 20+ years. It leads the young and uniformed to think wow these guys been at this along time they must know stuff others have forgotten about these rifles. Armalite is no worse or better than the other Tier 2's listed. Wouldn't surprise me if their rifles aren't made by Armscor in the Philippines the Ar 24 pistols are. Maybe not probably running the old Eagle arms lines that they "bought out".

Any history posted by a company about themselves is always a self serving advertising piece and as such is bound to paint a pretty picture! Linking to a spec page or a manual PDF ok, but not a company history written by the advertising department. I did not see any mention of the poor GI's that took bolts and charging handles in the face before Colt and the military corrected the first of several flaws in the Armalite manufacturing and materials process of the bolts, barrels and buffers. My source on that, my stepfather a NAM vet that personally saw these things happen. Ask any early NAM vet they will tell you the same stories.

 

[grizman]

I think the problem some folks are having is getting over some of the apparent historical inaccuracies in your initial post (i.e. the AR name, "carbine" trials, who designed it, who sold it, etc.) which seem to detract from the credibility of the point you're trying to make (which is generally valid).[/quote]

Never said a Carbine trial. It was a trial to replace the m1 carbine with a rifle that was light, accurate and powerful enough to hit and punch through a steel helmet at 500 yards. At this time the wonderful M14 was the new primary battle rifle. The AR15/m16 was interned as a supplement intermediate rifle to the M14, just like M1 carbine was to the M1 Garand during WW2. It was not until the GI's began complaining about the weight of the M14 and its ammo load, that the M16 was bumped up to primary status and the M14 pulled.
It is well Known that Stoner was the sole designer. Ever notice that The KAC SR15 and SR25 rifles are AR pattern and yet are called Stoner Rifles. Because maybe the are giving credit to the designer and not the place he worked? Maybe I shouldn't say that as there is no WIKI link to back that up! LOL.

 

[grizman]

I still find some issues with the accuracy of this statement.

per Armalite's History

You are looking at the AR10 Loosing out to the M14 a few years earlier , Different trial. Even if no other rifle was submitted along side the AR15 in the trials to replace the M1 Carbine it was still a trial.
Now were crossing different trials and weapons here.

Read this for the AR15 story.
The Black Rifle: History of the M16 Rifle - R. Blake Stevens and Edward Clinton Ezell - Black Rifle: M16 Retrospective - Epinions.com
And here for the M1 carbine connection.
Rifles / M-1 Carbine / .30 M1
Remember the M14 had just been adopted so the bean counters would not allow another new main battle rifle right away. So this route was taken to get around the red tape. Hmm

 

[Cwood]

This was not meant as a Armalite Bashing thread. It is somewhat misleading reading that "history" as it never states that Armalite built no AR15's for 20+ years. It leads the young and uniformed to think wow these guys been at this along time they must know stuff others have forgotten about these rifles. Armalite is no worse or better than the other Tier 2's listed. Wouldn't surprise me if their rifles aren't made by Armscor in the Philippines the Ar 24 pistols are. Maybe not probably running the old Eagle arms lines that they "bought out".

Any history posted by a company about themselves is always a self serving advertising piece and as such is bound to paint a pretty picture! Linking to a spec page or a manual PDF ok, but not a company history written by the advertising department. I did not see any mention of the poor GI's that took bolts and charging handles in the face before Colt and the military corrected the first of several flaws in the Armalite manufacturing and materials process of the bolts, barrels and buffers. My source on that, my stepfather a NAM vet that personally saw these things happen. Ask any early NAM vet they will tell you the same stories.

Apparently you didn't read the part were they said they erred in selling Colt the rights to the A15 and set to design something that would not violate Stoner's patented gas system. That right there means they did not produce any as they couldn't without the rights to do so.

Also, whether is Stoner's and Armalites design, the M16 fielded by the military they were Colt's. Why would they go further into the issues with the design when they no longer held the rights to such firearm? Also the article shows many faults of the company and does not paint its early days very well.

I know that point you are trying to make but there needs to be some accuracy in the statements. No Armalite did not make AR rifles in it's early days. Yes. they have less experience making them. Do I consider them a Tier 1 manufacturer, no. But making blanket statements a lot not based on fact does not help make get your point across.

 

[Cwood]

You are looking at the AR10 Loosing out to the M14 a few years earlier , Different trial. Even if no other rifle was submitted along side the AR15 in the trials to replace the M1 Carbine it was still a trial.
Now were crossing different trials and weapons here.

Read this for the AR15 story.
The Black Rifle: History of the M16 Rifle - R. Blake Stevens and Edward Clinton Ezell - Black Rifle: M16 Retrospective - Epinions.com
And here for the M1 carbine connection.
Rifles / M-1 Carbine / .30 M1
Remember the M14 had just been adopted so the bean counters would not allow another new main battle rifle right away. So this route was taken to get around the red tape. Hmm

They were during Colt's ownership of the AR15. It wasn't till the AR10 trials did the AR-15 even go into development.

 

[mvician]

AR stands for Armalite Rifle

The "Armalite" of today is NOT the original Armalite.
Eagle Arms bought the name

 

[Steven]

Why not skip the very inaccurate history lesson and just post a picture or link to " THE CHART" ??

 

[4PWW9]

There are all kinds of inaccuracies and issues with the OP.

A couple of things that jump out at me are:

The use of "Tier 1" to describe mil-spec manufacturers. In the manufacturing industry Tier 1 refers to a vendor that supplies the original equipment manufacturer or prime. A Tier 2 company refers to a vendor that supplies a Tier 1. A Tier 3 company is a vendor to a Tier 2 and so on.
A better term would be "prime". It is a fact that there are only 3 prime manufacturers of M16 & M4 rifles, meaning these are the only manufacturers approved to produce rifles for the US military currently and the only true "mil-spec" rifles out there. They are:

Colt
FN
Sabre

Mil-Spec means much more than just making a part to print, it also refers to controlled manufacturing processes, accountability, and acceptance. There are other companies that meet or exceed mil-spec requirements, but do not hold military contracts to produce complete AR15/M16 type rifles currently, some are mentioned in the OP, like Knight Armament.

Stoner worked for Armalite, which was a division of Fairchild Aircraft. Stoner was not the only engineer to work on the AR15, but is credited with its development, even though others contributed greatly to the design. Fairchild Aircraft and Armalite eventually went out of business. The only thing the current company Armalite has in common with the company Stoner worked for is the name and the fact that they make an AR15 type rifle, the two are not the same company.

Colt was not the only company to build AR15 or M16 type rifles prior to the 1980's. Harrington & Richardson and GM Hydromatic both built M16A1 rifles for the govt in addition to Colt.

There is no one single manufacturer of AR15 type rifles that manufacture all parts in-house. Many are buying from the same suppliers, even those referred to as Tier 2. Most do nothing more than assembly of parts, which is why so many new players are in the game now, like Spike's, it's "easy" to do if you have the resources to buy the parts. But service does set many companies apart.

Thats all I got time for now, coming from a Tier 1 who supplies one of the primes & military with components with 23 years in govt & industry.

 

[mvician]

Ever notice that The KAC SR15 and SR25 rifles are AR pattern and yet are called Stoner Rifles. Because maybe the are giving credit to the designer and not the place he worked?

Stoner worked for KAC