AR 6.5 Grendel vs. 5.56 vs. 300 AAC Blackout

[Jarhead1775]

Get a 5.56, shoot 75/77gr ammunition.

Can you send me a link with factory specs for this weight bullet fitting into an AR magazine and feeding properly in this configuration? I am sure there is something, but I would like to see it. About the largest I have found, that will fit it the 69gr SMK loaded to SAAMI specs.

 

[avboiler11]

Can you send me a link with factory specs for this weight bullet fitting into an AR magazine and feeding properly in this configuration?

Just a few...

Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Rifle :: Choose by Caliber :: 223 Rem :: 223 REM 75 GR BTHP STEEL MATCH™
Federal Premium - Rifle Details
Black Hills 5.56mm Now Available Commercially « Black Hills Ammunition

 

[Jarhead1775]

Just a few...

Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Rifle :: Choose by Caliber :: 223 Rem :: 223 REM 75 GR BTHP STEEL MATCH™
Federal Premium - Rifle Details
Black Hills 5.56mm Now Available Commercially « Black Hills Ammunition

I did not see any reference as to fitting into an AR type magazine or overall length of any of them. I did find pictures of the Hornady rounds being used in an AR at a match,after I dug through Hornady's website. None of the rounds in the direct links would be suitable for hunting according to the bullet manufactures. Especially the SMK projectiles... it says right on the box of bullets. Which 2/3 of those links were the SMK bullets.

I know there are plenty of rounds that are heavier than the 69gr that I stated.. I think they make them all the way to at least 90gr, but most have issues with the AR platform feeding from a magazine. You can single load any of them... but that is not the idea of the AR.

 

[Jeremiah]

5.56 will feed 77gr barnes tsx and seiera match kings. You will find those as readily in factory loads as you will hunting bullets in 6.5G, I would start with 5.56 if your goal was uunder 200 yards. 6.5G has much more energy, but that isn't needed until you are going for longer shots, or shooting bigger game.

 

[hacksawfg]

Ok... That somewhat narrows it down.

vette has you covered on optics
downzero got you away from the 300 (downzero I dont recommend the 9mm Luger either lol)

You are not going to be reloading in the immediate future.

Now, one last question... or so I think

Do you plan to hunt with it, in Indiana, or just punch paper and steel?


If the answer is hunting... and you want to hunt deer.. then go 6.5 Grendel. If the answer is anything but that, then the only thing that makes sense $$ wise would be the .223/5.56.

If you want to punch paper and do it cheap.. go .223/5.56. That is about the cheapest and most readily available round for an AR... besides the .22LR. Im not going there lol.

If I hunt deer in Indiana, I will probably buy my friends Ruger Super Blackhawk (he moved from Michigan to Massachusetts for work, the gun obviously did not). I have a 270 Win for rifle legal states. Hogs are a possibility, but not this year. So I'll go with 5.56 for now, that at least gets me in the AR owner door soon. Thanks for the help guys!

BTW, repped who I could get to, apparently I ran out for the day

 

[avboiler11]

All three of those I linked to are loaded to AR mag length which is SAMMI spec; the Black Hills 5.56 load is basically Mk262 ammo used by the military. Pretty much all 223/5.56 commercially available ammunition will fit into an AR including "heavies", as the AR is far and away the most common 223/5.56 chambered weapon.

When you get into VLD-style, secant ogive bullets (like the 75/80gr A-Max, 80/90gr SMK, 75gr+ Berger VLD) THAT is where you run into issues not fitting into an AR magazine. But you're not gonna find factory loaded ammunition using those bullets, so its a moot point.

As for the SMK's suitability for hunting...yes, the box says its not for hunting, but its just as suitable for killing a deer as it is killing a human. Pick your shots and the bullet where it needs to go and it'll do its job just fine.

The internet is full of pictures of deer killed with 223 Rem Hornady TAP or Federal Gold Metal Match...and I'd have a doe tell you all about how a 22cal 80gr A-Max isn't suitable for hunting either, but she lost her mind (and pretty much everything from eye to ear) when she met it.

 

[Jarhead1775]

All three of those I linked to are loaded to AR mag length which is SAMMI spec; the Black Hills 5.56 load is basically Mk262 ammo used by the military. Pretty much all 223/5.56 commercially available ammunition will fit into an AR including "heavies", as the AR is far and away the most common 223/5.56 chambered weapon.

When you get into VLD-style, secant ogive bullets (like the 75/80gr A-Max, 80/90gr SMK, 75gr+ Berger VLD) THAT is where you run into issues not fitting into an AR magazine. But you're not gonna find factory loaded ammunition using those bullets, so its a moot point.

As for the SMK's suitability for hunting...yes, the box says its not for hunting, but its just as suitable for killing a deer as it is killing a human. Pick your shots and the bullet where it needs to go and it'll do its job just fine.

The internet is full of pictures of deer killed with 223 Rem Hornady TAP or Federal Gold Metal Match...and I'd have a doe tell you all about how a 22cal 80gr A-Max isn't suitable for hunting either, but she lost her mind (and pretty much everything from eye to ear) when she met it.

I apologize to you as I was loading and speaking of a VLD type (Hornady 75gr A-max)

That is great lol and Yes, I understand about proper shot placement

 

[cundiff5535]

If I were you, I would think about picking up a Templar Custom rail system... this is made to be able to take down and change out calibers and barrels within 5 mins. This would give you the option of all three and just buy as you see fit.

I want to point out if this guy can do this in 5 mins, I could do it in about 2.

**Just my thoughts as far as getting different barrels calibers etc...**


Video:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clscEKrLV7c[/ame]

Here is where I got mine at:
Templar Custom - Rails/Handguards - Upper Parts

 

[rsilvers]

This makes no sense. If a barrel length and case doesn't have sufficient powder capacity for a 6.5mm bullet, it certainly isn't going to make things any better by using a smaller case with less powder capacity and a larger, 7.62mm, heavier bullet.

It is true that the 6.5 is more powerful than 300 BLK in most or all barrel lengths, but larger bore cartridges do make better use of shorter barrels. So while the larger bore and smaller case won't make it surpass the 6.5 G in power, it will come closer to its max potential in a 16 inch barrel than 6.5 G would - and have much less flash, blast, and noise.

300 Blackout is a specialized cartridge that is designed (most importantly) for subsonic use out of (usually) an SBR with a suppressor. It can be used supersonic out of a 16"+ barrel and without a suppressor, but the result would essentially be an underpowered AK round with the ergonomics of an AR--not exactly the intended audience for the cartridge.

It is a general purpose intermediate cartridge just like 7.62x39mm - except it is reliable in the AR15 using normal, full capacity 30 round magazines. The fact that it can also do subsonic and shoot from 100 to 250 grain bullets only means it has more broad use, not more narrow use, than other cartridges.

It is important to know that 7.62x39mm velocities are reported from 20 inch barrels, and 300 BLK are reported from 16 inch barrels. While it has a tad less power at the muzzle than 7.62x39mm, the bullets are higher BC, and there is no 7.62x39mm commercial load which has more power than 300 BLK past about 120 yards - and 300 BLK is about 16% more powerful at 300 meters.

 

[Reload1]

I'd get a 5.56 upper first. Even the worst AR I have shot would do better than 1.5" at 100 yards. Then look at the 6.5 Grendel for your build. Wolf makes some of their Gold ammo for the 6.5. Not as good as my reloads but it functions.

Bill R.

 

[Sand-Dragon]

There's a big debate on this and to give you an idea on which is more powerful I'll tell you this 5.56NATO<300 Blackout<6.5 Grendel.

Let me go into this with a little more depth about each round so you can decide. I may seem a little biased but I will gie you the pro's and cons of every round.

I'm not a fan of the 5.56 NATO. And I can tell you this first hand. I've been shot in the leg with a 7.62x39mm (Standard AK-47 Round) in Afghanistan and it felt like Barry Bonds hit me in the leg with a baseball bat. I shot my attacker in the chest, 30 yards away, with a 3 round burst from my M4, which uses a 5.56 NATO round and he still was able to move around, in fact run away! That being said from what I've read 5.56 NATO it's good for home defense, since it's lower in terms of kinetic enery and power, so you won't have to worry about rounds goin threw your house as you would a .300 Blackout or a 6.5 Grendel. It's also good for varmint shooting and out to 300 meters with a max effective range of 500 meters (550 Yards) is a very accurate round, depending on how good YOUR able to shoot it. Plus out of all 3 ammo choices, I'm fairly certain 5.56NATO is going to be your cheapest bet if you buy ammo.

I'm going to be honest here and tell you that I'm not very knowledgeable with the .300 Blackout, but I will say if you're at any point thinking about using a suppressor (or silencer) for you rifle, .300 Blackout is the way to go. The .300 Blackout is in all actuallity a 7.62x25mm caliber bullet. It fires slower than a 5.56NATO round, but has more kinetic enery behind it, with about the same ballistics as the 7.62x39mm round, the same round I just explained that knocks mother f#ckers over and takes out chunks instead of peppering them with small holes. It seems like a solid round choice to me. The Blackout is also good for short barreled rifles (SBR's). In fact I think it was designed around that concept. Short barreled rifles range from 7inches to 14.5 inches. Indiana says your rifle has to have a barrel of 16 inches or more to be legal, or else you must pay the $200.00 tax stamp to the ATF. Another awesome feature is you can fit 30 rounds of .300 Blackout into a regular 30 round 5.56 NATO Mag and there are more and more companies coming out with .300 Blackout Rifles and Uppers. So you won't have to look into buying higher priced mags like you would the 6.5 Grendel and as I said before, it's great if you decide to run a suppressor on your AR.

The 6.5 Grendel is a beast of a round from what I've read. It's more accurate and shoots farther than the .308NATO round which military snipers use all the time. So that says something. There aren't many AR's out there that are built with this round in mind and it's going to be the most expensive as far as ammo goes....but it's such an interesting round with such great ballistic capability it's very much worth looking into. However if you want a truck gun I would suggest not going this route. It's a monster round that will go threw your attacker, the building behind him and the tree outside. It's more of a long range round all in all.

I would also suggest the 6.8 SPC round instead of the 6.5 Grendel. It's got more than double the kinetic energy and power of a 5.56NATO round and is very accurate, with a little sharper recoil than a 5.56 but less than a .308NATO round. At close ranges the 6.8 SPC does a **** ton of damage and for longer ranges it fires flatter than a 5.56....but out pass 500 meters it pretty much does the same as a 5.56 Nato. But I don't see why you would have to shoot that far out...and I don't believe you are looking to shoot out that far for the purposes you have stated.

Honestly I'm a little skeptical of all these new rounds coming out like the .300 Blackout, 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, etc. because I believe that rounds like 5.56NATO and 7.62x39, the more common calibers that you see is because you can buy 5.56NATO, 7.62x39mm, and .308NATO fairly cheap and in bulk! Especially the 7.62x39, since it's the caliber for the AK-47, the most used assault rifle in the world. But honestly you're going the AR-15 route, not the AK-47 route. HOWEVER, 6mm rounds like the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel are becoming a big topic and a game changer in the world of ballistics now. A buddy of mine that I deployed to Afghanistan with, who had been on 3 deployments himself, explained that he was goin to buy an AR-15 in 6.8 SPC because it's not such a common round, and that being said less people are apt to buy it, leaving more of it to buy for people who know about it. That was some food for thought.

I apologize for rambling on. Hopefully you get some useful knowlege from this. I don't think this will answer your question, lol....but it should give you some more insight about the choices you're going to make. As far as me, personally, if I'm going to build or buy my own AR I'm going to get it in 6.8 SPC.

 

[avboiler11]

I'm not a fan of the 5.56 NATO. And I can tell you this first hand. I've been shot in the leg with a 7.62x39mm (Standard AK-47 Round) in Afghanistan and it felt like Barry Bonds hit me in the leg with a baseball bat. I shot my attacker in the chest, 30 yards away, with a 3 round burst from my M4, which uses a 5.56 NATO round and he still was able to move around, in fact run away!

Sorry to hear you were hit, glad to hear you made it back okay.

Do you by chance know what kind of NATO load you were using..M855, Mk318, Mk262?

 

[Sand-Dragon]

Sorry to hear you were hit, glad to hear you made it back okay.

Do you by chance know what kind of NATO load you were using..M855, Mk318, Mk262?

Thanks a lot for your support, man. I have no clue the type of load that was given to me at the time. They really didn't delve into the type of info when they handed us out the rounds, lol. And I didn't think to ask.

 

[melensdad]

Here are some ballistic charts, don't show the 300 AAC Blackout, but they do help with the other rounds discussed. BTW, the 6.8 SPC does not shoot flatter than the 5.56 NATO, see the chart below. The ballistic coefficient of the 6.8 SPC loads also causes the round to slow down quickly and lose energy.

As far as costs go, I occasionally find 123gr 6.5 Grendel from Wolf in reloadable brass cases, for about 50 to 52 cents a round, delivered. 6.5 Grendel premium rounds sell for about 90 cents to $1.15 each depending on the bullet used. 6.8 SPC rounds seem to average about a $1 a shot. I don't know the current prices for 300 AAC Blackout, but they are generally pretty modest in price.

 

[bowtie]

Ok... That somewhat narrows it down.

vette has you covered on optics
downzero got you away from the 300 (downzero I dont recommend the 9mm Luger either lol)

You are not going to be reloading in the immediate future.

Now, one last question... or so I think

Do you plan to hunt with it, in Indiana, or just punch paper and steel?


If the answer is hunting... and you want to hunt deer.. then go 6.5 Grendel. If the answer is anything but that, then the only thing that makes sense $$ wise would be the .223/5.56.

If you want to punch paper and do it cheap.. go .223/5.56. That is about the cheapest and most readily available round for an AR... besides the .22LR. Im not going there lol.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. You can't hunt deer in indiana with a 6.5 Grendel AR 15 correct?

 

[downzero]

It is true that the 6.5 is more powerful than 300 BLK in most or all barrel lengths, but larger bore cartridges do make better use of shorter barrels. So while the larger bore and smaller case won't make it surpass the 6.5 G in power, it will come closer to its max potential in a 16 inch barrel than 6.5 G would - and have much less flash, blast, and noise.



It is a general purpose intermediate cartridge just like 7.62x39mm - except it is reliable in the AR15 using normal, full capacity 30 round magazines. The fact that it can also do subsonic and shoot from 100 to 250 grain bullets only means it has more broad use, not more narrow use, than other cartridges.

It is important to know that 7.62x39mm velocities are reported from 20 inch barrels, and 300 BLK are reported from 16 inch barrels. While it has a tad less power at the muzzle than 7.62x39mm, the bullets are higher BC, and there is no 7.62x39mm commercial load which has more power than 300 BLK past about 120 yards - and 300 BLK is about 16% more powerful at 300 meters.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying there, as you're absolutely spot-on with all points. The only comment I would make is that you're splitting hairs at this point.

300 Blackout and 7.62x39 are fairly close in performance. That's why I said that the 300 black is basically just a 7.62x39 round that works with M16/M4/AR mags. If that's what you're after, you'll end up with an AR with AK ballistics (or damn near), which is no slouch, but it will have the same shortcoming as an AK--range. The AK has killed plenty of people at 0-150 meters to show what a .30 caliber bullet of modest (compared to an intermediate cartridge like .308) power can do.

I like the idea of 6.5 Grendel. I have stated on this forum before, though, that i think it'd be better served as a 6mm cartridge. 6.5 Grendel doesn't have enough powder capacity to completely take advantage of the good 6.5mm bullets. It should have left that job to its larger cousin, .260 Remington, which happens to fit very nicely in the DPMS LR-260 (a rifle that I would love to own myself, if I could afford to put out the money for more good glass). The idea of 6.5 Grendel is sound. I just think it would have been a better cartridge if it used 6mm bullets. The 107 and 115 grain 6mm bullets are well-matched to the capacity of the 7.62x39 case on which the 6.5 Grendel is based.

Similarly, the 5.56 case would have been better off being a .20 caliber rather than .22. That's why I have a 20 Practical. Unfortunately, it's too late to go back and show the cartridge designers how awesome the 107 and 115 grain SMKs are, or the 39 grain .204 Blitz King!

The world is full of compromises, though, and at the end of the day, all of these cartridges have their uses. If I could only pick one, I'd probably pick 6.5 Grendel. No matter what the barrel length, other than for subsonic/suppressed operation, it has the best bullets available and the most potential. The tradeoff is the expensive brass.

 

[Jarhead1775]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. You can't hunt deer in indiana with a 6.5 Grendel AR 15 correct?

bowtie

Read my first post in this thread, it explains everything on this.

 

[bowtie]

bowtie

Read my first post in this thread, it explains everything on this.

Gotcha I missed that post thanks for the clarification

 

[USAMP1980]

I have owned all three of these caliber weapons. All made by STS, so all things (mostly) being equal.
6.5 Grendel is perhaps the best medium range caliber you can fit in an AR-15 platform without going AR-10. In flight, it out performs .308... and is plenty lethal at 800 yards. The better .BC gives it slightly better range that .308 WIN
Mine had an STS barrel from a Broughton Match SS blank. Was easily capable of 1/3 MOA. It was chambered in .264 LBC so that it could shoot both that and 6.5 Grendel. I preferred 123g A-MAX
The downsides are you need to replace the follower in your magazines, and reduced mag capacity. To my knowledge, these followers cannot be used in P-Mags.

.300 Blackout is a great assault rifle round. In a solid AR-15 platform, it is more accurate that 7.62x39 and feeds much better. Plus no special bolt or magazines. Supersonic, it has similar range to 6.8 SPC . I've had good luck with PNW ammo, both super and subsonic. I had terrible luck with Remington ammo. Left a horrific smoke signature. A plus is that the only parts difference between a standard AR-15 and .300 BLK is a different barrel. If you are ever considering a suppressor, I recommend a pistol-length gas system to cycle subs reliably.
From a reloading perspective, .300 BLK is easier than 6.5 Grendel because 5.56 brass availability and how common .308 projectiles are.

I'm not gonna comment on 5.56 NATO, as everyone should already know.

In short, if you want a S.A.S.S. or a hunting rifle, go 6.5 Grendel / .264 LBC
If you want a carbine or SBR with knock down power, go .300 BLK

For ammo availability and plinking , go 5.56 NATO. Just buy one that states 5.56 ... not .223

Just my opinion. Bottom line is what are you looking for out of this purchase.

 

[bowtie]

I cant wait to get my grendel finished!