Are Fists Lethal Weapons?

[DragonGunner]

Some say they would never draw and fire if they got into a fist fight....Well maybe George Zimmerman can use this.....17 yr. old kills 46 yr. old referee with one punch.

..Police: Utah soccer referee punched by player dies


Mods, please put this in the Carry issues....thanks.

 

[noname1]

So sad that a moment of stupidity can take the life of a guy volunteering to officiate the game and ruin the life of the kid that lacked the control to keep his hands to himself.

Just another reason I hate soccer!

 

[TheReaper]

I don't know about "labeling" the hands as deadly weapons, though nearly an object COULD be a weapon, it all boils down to fear of bodily harm or death. One man on one man, you're going to have to prove that you were in fear of grave bodily harm or death. That may not be very difficult these days with the way a lot of people are trained in MMA styles of fighting By the time you're on the ground and realize that they're trained, it's too late. One man against multiple attackers, armed or not, it's going to guns time. There are a lot of variables, such as "dispartity of force" or as in a 5-05 100 lb female against a 6-05 250 man, she'll be able to go to guns a lot quicker than a 6-02 200 lb man fighting the same person.
Many people think that it's difficult to kill a person with a single kick or punch, and it's not

 

[buckstopshere]

Yes, they need to be banned immediately

 

[Kutnupe14]

Seriously, why are police/prosecutor's office "considering" additional charges? If I was part of the victim's family, there's no way I could keep it together. "Considering?" This is flat out murder of an innocent man.

 

[TheReaper]

Seriously, why are police "considering" additional charges? If I was part of the victim's family, there's no way I could keep it together. "Considering?" This is flat out murder of an innocent man.

17 or not, they need to hammer the boy!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Seriously, why are police/prosecutor's office "considering" additional charges? If I was part of the victim's family, there's no way I could keep it together. "Considering?" This is flat out murder of an innocent man.

I wouldn't pursue it as murder if it was one blow to the face. I just don't see how you could prove his intent was to kill instead of to injure, and he wasn't committing arson, burglary, robbery, etc. At least in Indiana I don't think it would meet the requirements set forth in the IC codes.

Involuntary manslaughter would probably be the most fitting charge as his intentionally act of battery did result in death.

"c) A person who kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit:
(1) a Class C or Class D felony that inherently poses a risk of serious bodily injury;
(2) a Class A misdemeanor that inherently poses a risk of serious bodily injury; or
(3) battery;
commits involuntary manslaughter, "

 

[gunowner930]

I don't know about "labeling" the hands as deadly weapons, though nearly an object COULD be a weapon, it all boils down to fear of bodily harm or death. One man on one man, you're going to have to prove that you were in fear of grave bodily harm or death. That may not be very difficult these days with the way a lot of people are trained in MMA styles of fighting By the time you're on the ground and realize that they're trained, it's too late. One man against multiple attackers, armed or not, it's going to guns time. There are a lot of variables, such as "dispartity of force" or as in a 5-05 100 lb female against a 6-05 250 man, she'll be able to go to guns a lot quicker than a 6-02 200 lb man fighting the same person.
Many people think that it's difficult to kill a person with a single kick or punch, and it's not

A one punch kill is extremely rare, and I'm no doctor but at least from the some of the news reports that I have seen of this happening, a death from a punch is usually the result of brain swelling well after the initial punch. Sometimes its hard to view height/weight measurements as an indication of one's physical capabilities. The 250 lb man may not necessarily be stronger than the 200 lb man. For example, let's say Matt Hughes walks around at 190 lb. Now if we exclude his skills, I'd venture to say the he is a hell of a lot stronger than the average 250 lb man walking around on the streets. It makes it even more difficult in judging the disparity of force.

 

[ghuns]

Yes, they are. If you are me, and maybe Chuck Norris. I have a Utah non-resident permit for mine to protect me from the lawsuits. You have to get them registered and get the permit when you're a 19th degree black belt in Krav-Aikido-Jujistsuey, it's state law. I swear to god it is.

Charge this little punk with involuntary manslaughter and move on.

 

[gunowner930]

You have to get them registered and get the permit when you're a 19th degree black belt in Krav-Aikido-Jujistsuey, it's state law. I swear to god it is.

That's like the greatest Martial Art ever

 

[Expat]

As I recall, more people are killed by hands/fists each year than are killed by semi-auto rifles.

 

[TheReaper]

A one punch kill is extremely rare, and I'm no doctor but at least from the some of the news reports that I have seen of this happening, a death from a punch is usually the result of brain swelling well after the initial punch. Sometimes its hard to view height/weight measurements as an indication of one's physical capabilities. The 250 lb man may not necessarily be stronger than the 200 lb man. For example, let's say Matt Hughes walks around at 190 lb. Now if we exclude his skills, I'd venture to say the he is a hell of a lot stronger than the average 250 lb man walking around on the streets. It makes it even more difficult in judging the disparity of force.

It's more common than you think.

 

[IndyDave1776]

As I recall, more people are killed by hands/fists each year than are killed by semi-auto rifles.

Actually, more people are killed with hands/fists/feet per year than are killed with rifles of all description.

 

[cityartisan]

back to the OP "Are fists lethal weapons?"
depends on what you define as a weapon, most sources will not include fists. If the question was "Are fists lethal?" well, duh the answer is obvious

 

[ModernGunner]

Depends on what the criminal code is in Utah.

In Indiana, IMO it would most likely be viewed as VOLUNTARY manslaughter:

IC 35-42-1-3

Voluntary manslaughter
Sec. 3. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally:
(1) kills another human being; or
(2) kills a fetus that has attained viability (as defined in IC 16-18-2-365);
while acting under sudden heat commits voluntary manslaughter, a Class B felony. However, the offense is a Class A felony if it is committed by means of a deadly weapon.
(b) The existence of sudden heat is a mitigating factor that reduces what otherwise would be murder under section 1(1) of this chapter to voluntary manslaughter.
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.2. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.27; P.L.321-1987, SEC.1; P.L.261-1997, SEC.4.

Likely the defense is going to claim that the 17 year-old didn't 'knowingly or intentionally' kill the referee. However, we have no way of knowing (NOR does the defense) what the mindset of the 17 year-old was at the moment.

We DO know that the incident was perpetrated AFTER the second warning (yellow card) from the referee, so PERHAPS the mindset of the 17 year-old at the time WAS to 'kill that ref'.

It would APPEAR to be a matter of 'sudden heat', which only mitigates a murder charge to voluntary manslaughter under the Indiana Code cited above.

Let the jury decide if it should be a lesser charge.

As far as fists being potential weapons, undoubtedly. And it need NOT be the fists of a "250 lb. man", and physical strength may or may not have much to do with it.

 

[T2D4]

what an absolutely moronic strawman on your part. wow.

 

[cosermann]

It's more common than you think.

Actually, more people are killed with hands/fists/feet per year than are killed with rifles of all description.

Yup. Here are the stats from the FBI:

FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

 

[blamecharles]

Professional Fighters Registering as Lethal Weapons - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums

 

[TJSaltdog]

There is no law that states you must register your hands or feet as lethal weapons if you are a Martial Artist. But if you do hurt someone or possibly kill them. the prosecution will use your training against you. I am a 4 Dan Black belt and have been in trouble for using my skills to protect myself. Thank God there were witnesses that saw the whole thing go down.

 

[TJSaltdog]

That's like the greatest Martial Art ever

Krav Maga martial arts actually has the highest rank of 5 Dan Black Belt.

After 5 Dan there is the rank of Master. However, this rank is held by only a small number of individuals and reserved only for those who have dedicated a lifetime to Krav Maga and made valuable contributions in teaching and promoting the style.

I dont know where he gets 19 Dan from. Unless he is studying from someone who has invented his own style of Krav Maga.

There are only a few arts that have 10 Dan and American Shaolin Kempo is one of them which I hold the rank of 4 Dan. I am not considered a master until I have achieved 5 Dan rank. The problem is there no one in the state of Indiana that can teach me and promote me to the rank of 5 Dan.