Are there legitimate reasons not to be fingerprinted?

[Delmar]

I was reading an article about the Grady Scott case. Indy.com | Post: Owners must give fingerprints to get guns back from IMPD | Indianapolis, Indiana
where this old guy who had his guns ceased because of the wrong address on a search warrant.
This part of the article got my attention

Stephen Dunlop, president of Hoosiers Concerned About Gun Violence, said fingerprinting helps police keep guns out of the hands of criminals and other dangerous individuals.
“Since the gun community has been so resistant to any registration of guns and any tracking of guns once they leave the gun store, this is a real problem for police,” Dunlop said. Fingerprinting “is not an unreasonable thing to do to try to confirm the identity.”
Honest gun owners should have no problem with submitting to fingerprint checks, Dunlop said.
“You have to think: ‘Why would someone refuse to give their fingerprint?’ " he said.

So what do you think? Are there legitimate reasons why honest people don't want to be fingerprinted?
Can you imagine being 69 years old, staying out of trouble your whole life, being told that you have to be fingerprinted to keep your property?

This is something I had to think about last year when I applied for my LTCH. I was sort of proud of the fact that I had previously, never had occasion to be fingerprinted.

 

[AFA1CY]

Putting aside all the discussion about this case, the Indiana Code pretty much demands that firearms be returned to the owners IMMEDIENTLY. There is not any provision for fingerprinting or delaying. IMPD has admitted that he is the rightful owner so that should be end of story, period.

 

[MrsGungho]

Have you ever tried to clean that ink out from under your nice manicure?

 

[theweakerbrother]

Have you ever tried to clean that ink out from under your nice manicure?

It's even harder to do with your pedicure!!!!

 

[ralphb72]

It's called abuse of power. I've been fingerprinted several times, mostly service related but also for the LTCH, but if there is no specific law or code requiring it, then it is simply abuse of power.

 

[Bisley Man]

Have you ever tried to clean that ink out from under your nice manicure?

Good thing they don't want toe prints also.What a mess,getting that BLACK ink on a girl's French Pedicure.

 

[Eddie]

I don't think that a free person should have to give a "legitimate reason" for not wanting to do something. IPD had no right to seize his property therefore he had no need to comply with any of their rules for giving it back. If the guns had been lawfully seized it might be a different story.

To date I have been fingerprinted at least six times and probably more. Two were for LTC applications the rest were for background checks related to professional licensing. Since the government already has multiple copies of my fingerprints I would have just let them fingerprint me to get my guns back.

On the other hand, Mr. Scott might not have been fingerprinted before. He might have legitimate 5th amendment reasons for not wanting to be fingerprinted and he was probably PO'd that the cops came to the wrong address, tore up his home and took his guns. He was likely expressing his displeasure at their mistakes by refusing to further submit to their will.

IMO, had I been advising the PD, Mr. Grady would have received: his guns back no questions asked with a personal apology from the people who made the mistake and his house repaired and cleaned on the city's dime.

They could have turned this whole thing around into a public relations victory with only a small dose of humility. Imagine the money that was wasted on defending this lawsuit; probably a fraction of the cost of cleanup and repair to fix their own mistake.

 

[jbombelli]

IF someone steals my cellphone, or my car stereo, or a bunch of CDs out of my car, or anything else and the cops recover it, are they going to fingerprint me before allowing me to reclaim MY POSSESSIONS???



There is no law requiring that I be fingerprinted before having my guns returned to me. That is all the legitimate reason I need. Damn... I get so sick and tired of cops making up the law in regard to what they can and can't do as they go along.

Back when I was a broker, dealing with people's money, if I made an HONEST MISTAKE resulting in loss to a customer, I was held accountable. I could have been suspended for a week, a month, or a year or more, without pay, or lost my job in a heartbeat over an HONEST MISTAKE. If I'd intentionally broken the rules, I could have been banned from the industry forever. The police need the same level of accountability. I only dealt with money. They deal with lives.

 

[ReadnFool]

If you read up on the accuracy of interpretation on forensic evidence you will find that it is not the cut and dried 100 percent effective science that the police would want you to believe. For example fingerprint matches are verified by people as a final check, the computer is just used to winnow out the obvious non matches. Imagine a case where now that his fingerprints are on file, a kid goes missing in the neighborhood, the computer flags him as a possible match, the police will now focus on him as a suspect and ignore the real culpret. There have been many cases where the investigation has been sidetracked into a dead end by coincidenced like this. There are also many cases where the CSI has flubbed the analysis because the police know this is the guy. Kind of far fetched, but things like this have happened before.

 

[96firephoenix]

there are many legitimate reasons for honest gun owners not to be fingerprinted. chief among these would be prevention of abuse of power. IMPD (and IPD before that, not so much MCSD) has a history of believing that they are above the law simply because they enforce it. in the ten years I've lived here in indy, not a month has gone by that I can recall where a cop has not gotten arrested for something. its outrageous that IMPD abuses power so regularly and so egregiously. being fingerprinted in order to reclaim what is rightfully yours is another such abuse of power...

and by the way, what do you usually call it when armed men storm into a house, rip the place up and then remove possessions of the home owner? burglary.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Delmar, IMPD is doing something for which there is no basis in law.

It is the Rule of Man over the Rule of Law.

Once the police do things by decree instead of by law we are on the way to a Banana Republic, and I don't mean the clothing store.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

in the ten years I've lived here in indy, not a month has gone by that I can recall where a cop has not gotten arrested for something.

I would like you to provide names of the 120 LEOs that have been arrested in the last 10 years in Indy.

 

[SKSnut]

if ya didn't have any fingers

 

[bigus_D]

I agree, Delmar... to go one step further: if you aren't breaking the law, is there a legitimate reason to stop the police from searching your house without a warrant. I think we should all volunteer for random wire taping as well. As a matter of fact, we should all just open up our financial records. We should probably start maintaining a list of everybody we talk to each day and submit that along with a synopsis of our conversations.

I bet, with some additional freedoms like these, the cops could prevent more crimes.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I would like you to provide names of the 120 LEOs that have been arrested in the last 10 years in Indy.

Valid question, but let's please do this in a different thread so this one doesn't get jacked.

On topic, Frank, what is your opinion of the "must be fingerprinted to get your guns back, after we hold them in the property room for some extended period of time" policy? I know what I've read elsewhere on this site and other places, but I figure you'd know firsthand: Is it true either partly or wholly (and which part is true, if only part.) If true, is there some valid, legitimate reason why that/those particular items of property are so treated? I can't think of any, but then, I'm not in law enforcement, so you may have a different perspective than I do.

I do realize that you can't necessarily give an opinion in the open, considering your identity is likely known at work, so if you'd rather do so privately, my PM box is available as well. That goes for any Indy-area LEO, BTW, and anything that comes in that way will be re-posted to the board, anonymously, unless you request it not be posted at all.


Thanks for your help and understanding! Stay safe out there.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[E5RANGER375]

A law abiding citizen has every constitutional right to NEVER have ANY kind of police interaction for his or her whole life if they dont want it!!

the fact that we even need to be granted permission by "the kings men" to carry our pistols is unconstitutional and Oppressive government, and no less than that!!! Our founders would have already drug them into the streets and tarred and feathered them all. today we just sit back and accept it cause "thats the way it is" and "theres nothing I can do to make a difference". either we stand up together and get these unconstitutional laws repealed or we will eventualy lose it all. one un-constitutional law is just as bad as another.

giving my fingerprints or blood, liver, arm, etc, to be allowed to do something in MY own damn country is rediculous.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I would like you to provide names of the 120 LEOs that have been arrested in the last 10 years in Indy.

In response, id just like to give a quote often said by police.

"just because you havent been caught, doesnt mean you havent done it"

and as long as the good ole boy club exist in ANY department, then we will never truely know how many police should have or should go to jail.

I know for a FACT (and i dont use that lightly) that some officers pull over fellow drunk officers (even from other departments) and call their respective departments FIRST to give them a chance to pick them up before pursuing legal actions. In many LARGE departments it is the EXPECTED thing to do, and "professional courtessy".

So to all the LEO's on here, like Bill i too would like to ask a question: do you or have you turned a blind eye to fellow officers who break the law, because its a unwritten professional courtessy, and you would be critisized and looked at as a whistle blower if you didnt? I understand you are afraid to get in trouble in your career, but when is enough enough? i ended a very good long friendship with an LEO because he told me he did just the above and told me it was common!

I wanna make it clear im not accusing any officers on here of that, nor am i saying you havent done it, im just asking a question, and more than giving an answer on the board, i think its an answer LEO's need to answer to themselves. because if i could ever video tape it happening you better believe it would be on CBS world news the next day. Please start standing up and fighting for whats right and fair even if it means your partners go to jail. and to all the cops that already do stand up against internal injustice, i applaud and support you more than you could ever know!!!

 

[Delmar]

A law abiding citizen has every constitutional right to NEVER have ANY kind of police interaction for his or her whole life if they dont want it!!

the fact that we even need to be granted permission by "the kings men" to carry our pistols is unconstitutional and Oppressive government, and no less than that!!! Our founders would have already drug them into the streets and tarred and feathered them all. today we just sit back and accept it cause "thats the way it is" and "theres nothing I can do to make a difference". either we stand up together and get these unconstitutional laws repealed or we will eventually lose it all. one un-constitutional law is just as bad as another.

giving my fingerprints or blood, liver, arm, etc, to be allowed to do something in MY own damn country is ridiculous.

This is a great response to those who say "just get your LTCH". I did get it, by the way, but why should I have to.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

On topic, Frank, what is your opinion of the "must be fingerprinted to get your guns back, after we hold them in the property room for some extended period of time" policy? I know what I've read elsewhere on this site and other places, but I figure you'd know firsthand: Is it true either partly or wholly (and which part is true, if only part.) If true, is there some valid, legitimate reason why that/those particular items of property are so treated? I can't think of any, but then, I'm not in law enforcement, so you may have a different perspective than I do.

I'm not sure who exactly set the policy currently in place at the property room when it comes to releasing firearms and fingerprinting the owners. My personal opinion is that if the firearms are owned legally and were not taken as the result of an arrest or domestic violence incident, they should be returned to the owner ASAP, without fingerprinting. That is just my though and really doesn't carry much weight.

In response, id just like to give a quote often said by police.

"just because you havent been caught, doesnt mean you havent done it"

and as long as the good ole boy club exist in ANY department, then we will never truely know how many police should have or should go to jail.

I know for a FACT (and i dont use that lightly) that some officers pull over fellow drunk officers (even from other departments) and call their respective departments FIRST to give them a chance to pick them up before pursuing legal actions. In many LARGE departments it is the EXPECTED thing to do, and "professional courtessy".

So to all the LEO's on here, like Bill i too would like to ask a question: do you or have you turned a blind eye to fellow officers who break the law, because its a unwritten professional courtessy, and you would be critisized and looked at as a whistle blower if you didnt? I understand you are afraid to get in trouble in your career, but when is enough enough? i ended a very good long friendship with an LEO because he told me he did just the above and told me it was common!

I wanna make it clear im not accusing any officers on here of that, nor am i saying you havent done it, im just asking a question, and more than giving an answer on the board, i think its an answer LEO's need to answer to themselves. because if i could ever video tape it happening you better believe it would be on CBS world news the next day. Please start standing up and fighting for whats right and fair even if it means your partners go to jail. and to all the cops that already do stand up against internal injustice, i applaud and support you more than you could ever know!!!

How do you know I don't stand up for what is right? You don't know me from anyone, but you continually talk **** about my profession. I think you have a serious disdain for any and all things related to law enforcement and you take every available opportunity to voice that disdain. I could do the same thing with all of the military members that have been arrested for rape, murder, theft, DUI, etc but I chose not to. Funny how no one ever wants to start threads about what servicemen (and women) do.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Frank, i dont know that you do or dont, and i wasnt attacking you personaly or accusing you personaly of squat. and NO I do not hate or distain all law enforcement, but i do dislike most of its practices in its current form because I believe a lot of the law enforcemnt in this country is un-constitutional and they know it. also, I WILL NOT stand up for every member of the military, because i know there are criminals in the military just the same as with Law enforcement. I will stand up for constitutional laws and their enforcement. Also i will stand up for ANY person who stands up and supports what is right, no matter if its popular or not. Also, i strongly support the EQUAL punishment of ALL criminals whether they wear, a badge, camo, t-shirt, or tie.

the fact still remain that dirty and illegal practices do occur within law enforcement, and the thing that worries me is no cops ever wanna talk about it publicly.
also, abuses by police worry me a lot , more than those with the military, because the police operate among us HERE on U.S. soil and affect us more directly than the military. it still doesnt down play any injustices done by the military though.

I do not hate all Law Enforcement. and if i did do you realy think i would be afraid to admit it?? hell no, i would shout it. what you read is exactly what i mean and one should not read any further into it. but while an officer is in uniform, i have NOTHING to say to them, not because i dont support them, but because its my right not to.

also, with the military, I despise anyone who wears the uniform and discraces it. i think they should be punished to the most severe extent. i dont know how much more fair i can be than that? i never see stories on INGO about soldiers abusing authority although i know they happen. if i did, you better believe i would join in on the bashing wagon!!!

the fact remains that the police are becoming the governments tools to use in arriving at a police state. and we must be vigilant and on top of all abuses of power towards them. sorry if you work in a proffession of high scrutiny, but you do, what do you want me to say?? that you should have been a fireman? lol

also Frank, i have commended you PUBLICLY on INGO and given you rep for the way you have professionaly handled things, so that there should tell you i dont hate police. i only dislike the bad policies and the crooked police. i support the oath keepers!!