Asian groups file federal complaint against Harvard over admission practices

[Interpon]

Well my son applied to harvard. Turned down while i read that another person a minority, was front page in michigan paper. Act and sat reported far below my sons.oh and we make too much money for any scholarships worthwhile. Yale did put him on wait list at least. The whole process is bs, pure bs and needs to stop beyond admissions but real value in education and housing. Total bs.

never really thought about it much but harvard rejection was not the end of the world but disapointing as it was a goal and in reach. And yes he had way more volunteer honors international bs, eagle scout, to more than compete with fluent langauges.

just a shame. It needs to change

 

[Kutnupe14]

Well my son applied to harvard. Turned down while i read that another person a minority, was front page in michigan paper. Act and sat reported far below my sons.oh and we make too much money for any scholarships worthwhile. Yale did put him on wait list at least. The whole process is bs, pure bs and needs to stop beyond admissions but real value in education and housing. Total bs.

never really thought about it much but harvard rejection was not the end of the world but disapointing as it was a goal and in reach. And yes he had way more volunteer honors international bs, eagle scout, to more than compete with fluent langauges.

just a shame. It needs to change

How do you know the scores of the "minority" that was admitted? I've NEVER seen "iffy" scores reported. The only time I have ever seen scores reported is when they come just shy of perfect. I'm thinking there's a fair bit of hyperbole on your part.

 

[bingley]

So why are we moaning about American students, who would undoubtedly serve the nation with their education, when foreign nationals, who mostly will return to their home nations with their American education are seemingly a bigger drain on an American's access to higher education?

Foreign students are rich. That's why American universities want them. They pay the full ride, and they bring money with them -- for tutors, for domestic help, etc. Just look at what they drive: Mercedez, Maserati, Lexus... Some universities even have garages for foreign students.

Also, some of them end up staying in the US. Those that return to their home countries tend to become supporters of the US. This sort of "diplomacy by education" has a long history in the US, and it will continue to have a place until our education system loses its international reputation.

 

[Leo]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Set the bar......those who can clear it get an acceptance letter in the mail. Those who can not seek out alternatives.

Alan Bloom was the Chancelor at Cornell diring the affirmative action proceedings. In his book, he reports that the biggest opposition was from the minority students who were ALREADY enrolled. They worked very hard to EARN their right to be there. They understood that the law, as written, would make their hard earned accomplishments highly discounted, if not valueless in the market place.

The GPA of the student earning a sheep skin does indicate how much the person applied himself. Having worked very hard personally to earn 3.5 to 4.0 gpa's over the years, I have found that no one really cares. Sealed, certified transcripts are always available to interested parties with written approval of the degree holder. My transcripts have only been accessed twice in my whole life. Both times were for schools where I was applying to do post graduate work.

Like the old joke, "what do you call the drunken frat boy that graduated last in his class at med school?" "You call him Doctor, just like the leaders of that class"

 

[Joe G]

How do you know the scores of the "minority" that was admitted? I've NEVER seen "iffy" scores reported. The only time I have ever seen scores reported is when they come just shy of perfect. I'm thinking there's a fair bit of hyperbole on your part.

You must not have seen this quote from earlier...

To equal the chance of admission to other races, Asian applicants need SAT scores that are:
- 140 points higher than white applicants,
- 270 points higher than Hispanic applicants and
- 450 points higher than African-American students, according to research cited in the complaint.


The SAT is a 2400-point test on which Asians have long outscored other U.S. ethnic groups.
Students of Asian descent currently make up roughly 21 percent of Harvard’s student body, but the complaint notes that schools that use a “race-neutral” admissions process, like the California Institute of Technology, can see the Asian proportion of their student bodies rise close to 40 percent.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Foreign students are rich. That's why American universities want them. They pay the full ride, and they bring money with them -- for tutors, for domestic help, etc. Just look at what they drive: Mercedez, Maserati, Lexus... Some universities even have garages for foreign students.

Also, some of them end up staying in the US. Those that return to their home countries tend to become supporters of the US. This sort of "diplomacy by education" has a long history in the US, and it will continue to have a place until our education system loses its international reputation.

So wealth should trump scores?

 

[Kutnupe14]

You must not have seen this quote from earlier...

I'm not speaking generally, I'm speaking regarding the specific minority individual, who with scores that were apparently far below those not granted admission, made the FRONT page of the local paper.

 

[Kutnupe14]

And I should point this out, it ain't black students that reversal in this policy would affect. Asians make up 4% of the population, but hold double digit %s in schools like Harvard (18%),Stanford (25%), Columbia (25%), and Cornell (25%).

 

[bingley]

So wealth should trump scores?

I don't think it should, but, in general, it does. I'm not sure how this works in a public university, though. Does admitting one rich foreign student mean denying the opportunity to one poor American student who's going to have to borrow tons of money to afford college? Or does it mean someone who pays full price will help someone pay half price? I just don't know.

And I should point this out, it ain't black students that reversal in this policy would affect. Asians make up 4% of the population, but hold double digit %s in schools like Harvard (18%),Stanford (25%), Columbia (25%), and Cornell (25%).

Their percentages are Cal Tech & University of California, where affirmative action is banned, are even higher.

 

[cobber]

Nope, I'm asking why the admissions of foreign nationals into US colleges isn't brought up more often? IMO, if the Asian students are upset about how a public university admits students, fine. But as far as private colleges go, they can pound sand.

Asian AMERICAN kids.

Like black AMERICAN kids...

And what "private" college doesn't accept federal funds for something? How many colleges are exempt from Title IX, for instance?

Can my private hotel deny lodging to certain minority groups, because, y'know... privately owned?

Well my son applied to harvard. Turned down while i read that another person a minority, was front page in michigan paper. Act and sat reported far below my sons.oh and we make too much money for any scholarships worthwhile. Yale did put him on wait list at least. The whole process is bs, pure bs and needs to stop beyond admissions but real value in education and housing. Total bs.

never really thought about it much but harvard rejection was not the end of the world but disapointing as it was a goal and in reach. And yes he had way more volunteer honors international bs, eagle scout, to more than compete with fluent langauges.

just a shame. It needs to change

Guessing the "minority" in question wasn't Asian American...

 

[jamil]

Alan Bloom was the Chancelor at Cornell diring the affirmative action proceedings. In his book, he reports that the biggest opposition was from the minority students who were ALREADY enrolled. They worked very hard to EARN their right to be there. They understood that the law, as written, would make their hard earned accomplishments highly discounted, if not valueless in the market place.

The GPA of the student earning a sheep skin does indicate how much the person applied himself. Having worked very hard personally to earn 3.5 to 4.0 gpa's over the years, I have found that no one really cares. Sealed, certified transcripts are always available to interested parties with written approval of the degree holder. My transcripts have only been accessed twice in my whole life. Both times were for schools where I was applying to do post graduate work.

Like the old joke, "what do you call the drunken frat boy that graduated last in his class at med school?" "You call him Doctor, just like the leaders of that class"

That old joke is just a joke. The doctor who finished last in his class isn't nearly as likely to get the best gig straight out of school as the doctor who finished first. The best grades from the best colleges do matter for entry level workers who want the best jobs available.

Recruiters seek out smart graduates because they're easier to place and companies will pay higher fees for finding them. It may depend more on the field you're in, but I know of companies seek out recent top grads to fill new positions. It's because they can get top talent cheaper than what experienced talent costs. They pay top entry level salaries, but it's still entry level salaries.

But the point about the dilution affect affirmative action has on graduates of these top universities is spot on. A top university in a given field can charge more in tuition because of their reputation for producing the best graduates. When they allow people who fall under the bar to attend, for any reason, it affects what they can produce, and their overall reputation is diminished. But if they have a policy that affects just one demographic, like affirmative action, it puts a virtual asterisk on all graduates of that demographic, not just the ones who were admitted because of affirmative action. The black student who earned a spot outright, and works his ass off to earn his way to the top of the graduating class, still has that virtual asterisk.

Affirmative action is just another social program that perpetuates the problem rather than solves it.

 

[D-Ric902]

The best way to stop discrimination is to stop discriminating

test scores alone are the determining factor

the application shouldn't even ask for race, sex, religion.

Name, essay, and test scores alone.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Asian AMERICAN kids.

Like black AMERICAN kids...

And what "private" college doesn't accept federal funds for something? How many colleges are exempt from Title IX, for instance?

Can my private hotel deny lodging to certain minority groups, because, y'know... privately owned?



Guessing the "minority" in question wasn't Asian American...

Nope.... but should they be able to? Yes.
And to answer your question about private schools and federal money, yes they do. However, that money is almost exclusively financial aid to less wealthy students, not money needed for the administration of the school.

 

[jamil]

The best way to stop discrimination is to stop discriminating

test scores alone are the determining factor

the application shouldn't even ask for race, sex, religion.

Name, essay, and test scores alone.

I've often said race will always matter in something until race doesn't matter in anything.

 

[Kutnupe14]

The best way to stop discrimination is to stop discriminating

test scores alone are the determining factor

the application shouldn't even ask for race, sex, religion.

Name, essay, and test scores alone.

Who is the better student, the only child from Carmel with the 4.0 whose has never worked a day and who's family placed in admissions prep classes, or the one from Sheridan, who is the oldest of 5, works on the family's farm, and is president of the school's FFA chapter... and has a 3.5? I know which student I'd choose.

 

[D-Ric902]

Who is the better student, the only child from Carmel with the 4.0 whose has never worked a day and who's family placed in admissions prep classes, or the one from Sheridan, who is the oldest of 5, works on the family's farm, and is president of the school's FFA chapter... and has a 3.5? I know which student I'd choose.

Thats what the essay is for "why do you want to attend _____"

As far as who is best. It's a school, not a social engineering device.
Who will come up with the tuition easier and be a devoted alumni after graduation

 

[seedubs1]

This. And IMHO, we need to stop deporting people that we educate. If we educate them and they want to stay and be an American, we should offer them citizenship. I've had college friends that got deported because of someone making an error on their visa forms. It just makes no sense to me why we're deporting people that love America and want to stay here and contribute after we educate them.

Also, some of them end up staying in the US. Those that return to their home countries tend to become supporters of the US. This sort of "diplomacy by education" has a long history in the US, and it will continue to have a place until our education system loses its international reputation.

 

[edporch]

Government sanctioned and mandated discrimination should be ended. I simply deplore the whole concept of affirmative action.

Asian groups file federal complaint against Harvard over admission practices | Fox News

When it comes to admission to colleges, they shouldn't even have race listed on the application.
It should be by academic qualification.

Then give precedence to US Citizens, and in-state applicants first.

 

[jamil]

Who is the better student, the only child from Carmel with the 4.0 whose has never worked a day and who's family placed in admissions prep classes, or the one from Sheridan, who is the oldest of 5, works on the family's farm, and is president of the school's FFA chapter... and has a 3.5? I know which student I'd choose.

Does the Carmel school where the one student earned a 4.0 have the same academic standards as Sheridan school where the other student earned the 3.5? Their high school GPA doesn't matter as much as SAT scores. But I get the point nevertheless.

For better or worse, some colleges have formulas for admissions to make the student body demographics be what they want. But if the demographics of all college students doesn't match the demographics the colleges are trying to create, well, some students are just ****ed.

One cost of having a racially diverse campus for a school like Harvard, is that they create different levels of competition within racial groups. This means they must predetermine about how many of which races they will admit. Essentially, whites aren't competing against blacks for admission as much as they are competing with other whites. Asians aren't competing with whites and blacks as much as they are competing with other Asians.

I mentioned the down side to affirmative action for blacks, the implied or virtual asterisk next to their name. But there is an upside to that for Asians because it is a more competitive demographic. The implied asterisk along side their name is very positive. If employers know that getting into a top school is so much more competitive for Asians than it is for blacks, or whites, the implied asterisk next to their name means they are truly the best of the best.

 

[miguel]

Who is the better student, the only child from Carmel with the 4.0 whose has never worked a day and who's family placed in admissions prep classes, or the one from Sheridan, who is the oldest of 5, works on the family's farm, and is president of the school's FFA chapter... and has a 3.5? I know which student I'd choose.

It's OK to have empathy or sympathy for a specific applicant's background, but as an admissions director making the decision, you have to ask the following:

What classes did they take in HS? Did the 4.0 challenge himself/herself/itself/<FB gender>self or cruise? Same for the 3.5.

What school are they applying to? Texas A & M, Yale, IUPUI? FFA Pres is going to carry a good deal of weight at A & M vs. Yale if applying to an AG program.

What were standardized test scores? SAT and/or ACT? Score Choice vs. Superscore? Were both taken?

Did student's essay grease the tracks or contain relevant information? Did 3.5 applicant have 4.0 until senior year when a parent died and they had to step up to care for siblings, yadda, yadda?

Many moving parts to an admissions decision and there can certainly be bias by the admissions office unless a student tells a compelling story with all the means at their disposal.