Asking to See Papers

[GunsCarsPlanes]

And go outdoors!

oh jeeze, yeah no kidding. I made the mistake of taking my 10 year old to shoot for the first time @ Blythes. Everyone was kind but the acoustics... its like asking to scare the crap out of the kid.

 

[freekforge]

Kinda the same thing i guess. When I was a couple months on the pd our assistant chief asked for sbr paperwork for a 10.5 AR with Shockwave blade. Told him I didn't have tax forms but had the opinion letter saying it was OK. He refused to look at the letter and told me to remove it or go to jail. I always wanted to be a cop so I did as I was told then sent him and email with the opinion letter attached. That should have been a red flag but I ignored it because I'm an idiot.

 

[IUKalash429]

This brings up Shoot Point Blank, demanding to see a stamp from VUPD several years ago. They have no right. A stamp is nothing more than a tax form. Imagine going to the car wash, and they demand to see your vehicle registration, also a tax form, before they’ll wash your truck.

An NFA form must be presented to the ATF upon request, per the form. That makes sense, no big deal. But, often times, NFA items are illegal in states, without approval from the ATF.

Per the form, only the ATF can demand to see the form, but, failure to produce it could get you arrested by the locals, as machine guns (and other NFA items) are only legal with ATF approval, AKA, a stamp.

Show the stamp to anyone with a badge requesting to see it. If a range officer demands it, go somewhere else.

I stopped by to say something similar. The only time I've been asked for papers is by an older RSO at Range USA. I said politely but sternly "no." He then tried to touch one of my firearms and I told him to leave it alone. He said he had the right to ask for papers if he wanted to. I said he has the right to ask me anything he wants to, but he has zero right to an answer, let alone to demand NFA proof.

Recently I chatted with a younger RSO there who I see more frequently now, about the brace ban and injunction. He said it's not his place to ask and he doesn't really care. He did divulge that they've seen more plainclothes agents in the range asking people for papers/stamps. That troubles me.

 

[FNparabellum]

Comments on the "5320 isn't for suppressors" discussion has me wondering.

I'm curious - has anyone ever been asked to see papers from an LE agency? I see how it could happen at a range, especially with an MG, but has an officer / ranger / sheriff / ATF ever asked to see your papers?

Not debating the "they have no right" argument so let's not go there. I'm only interested in personal experiences. If so, how did it go?

Ive had several range officers ask and i always refused. Had a cop called on me for it once and he basically said its not his problem. Only once have I had an atf employee ask to see it on a range. Other then that no one really sees em.

 

[GunsCarsPlanes]

once have I had an atf employee ask to see it on a range

wow, I didn't know they creep like that

 

[FNparabellum]

wow, I didn't know they creep like that

Im a firearms instructor so Im on the range quite often. That being said only being stopped once in all that time seems pretty good to me. Granted id rather it didn't happen at all.

 

[GunsCarsPlanes]

Im a firearms instructor so Im on the range quite often

ahh

 

[Nazgul]

Have had a Serbu SBS for 10+ years, carried it to and from various places to shoot. Always private , never had it to a range.

Never had anyone of authority ask. Haven't been stopped by a LEO while it was with me. Have had a couple people look at the copy of the form because they had never seen one.

Don

 

[Slow Hand]

We were at a decent sized family shoot a few years back, probably 75-100 folks there shooting off and on all day. I broke out the Vickers fairly early and sometime before lunch the range was called cold. I was kind of surprised as it didn’t normally happen and as I looked over, I saw a sheriff’s SUV pulling in. I grabbed my folder of paperwork and headed to the area they were at. They were talking to the property owner/host when I walked up and he introduced me. I held up the folder and told him I had all of the paperwork there he needed to see. He said to hold on for a couple minutes so his supervisor could show up. He did and after seeing a folder with various papers in it he just kind of looked around and said “you guys look like you’re being safe” and started to leave. I stopped them and let the two of them finish off a belt of .303 and they also both shot a magazine each out of the Sterling. Many of the folk standing around watching them were also videotaping them, so we had plenty of blackmail evidence! The left, full of smiles and said not to worry about anything and if we could, just let them know the next year when we were having the shoot.

 

[Dog1]

I've been to several indoor ranges with my class 3 stuff and I've never had anybody even ask me for my paperwork. Both in Indiana and Kentucky. And I have my 5320.20s copies with me when I travel along with copies of my stamps. I've had at RSOs at Range USA come up and just talk to me about my stuff but never asked me for my paperwork

 

[Creedmoor]

Kinda the same thing i guess. When I was a couple months on the pd our assistant chief asked for sbr paperwork for a 10.5 AR with Shockwave blade. Told him I didn't have tax forms but had the opinion letter saying it was OK. He refused to look at the letter and told me to remove it or go to jail. I always wanted to be a cop so I did as I was told then sent him and email with the opinion letter attached. That should have been a red flag but I ignored it because I'm an idiot.

I believe if I was your assist Chief I would have given you the same options my friend.
Ive always felt in the nfa world if its an adj buttstock with a butt plate.
And under a 16" barrel, it needs a stamp.
Wrong, right its indifferent. Its the law of the land.

 

[Beowulf]

I believe if I was your assist Chief I would have given you the same options my friend.
Ive always felt in the nfa world if its an adj buttstock with a butt plate.
And under a 16" barrel, it needs a stamp.
Wrong, right its indifferent. Its the law of the land.
View attachment 291908

Well, with that attitude, I certainly hope you aren't in law enforcement in any capacity.

The issue here is that chief was WRONG. It (at the time) wasn't considered an SBR and needed no paperwork.

If we have law enforcement officers, acting in an official capacity, just making up laws and then enforcing them on a whim, that would be the earmarks of a police state, not a constitutional republic.

 

[freekforge]

I believe if I was your assist Chief I would have given you the same options my friend.
Ive always felt in the nfa world if its an adj buttstock with a butt plate.
And under a 16" barrel, it needs a stamp.
Wrong, right its indifferent. Its the law of the land.
View attachment 291908

Hope you're not or ever have been a cop. Using your own words, show your work. How did you come to the conclusion that it's against the law? On multiple occasions the atf said it was perfectly legal even under a democrat president. At the time (summer 2017) I had a 2017 dated opinion letter saying i was gtg. Your opinion carries zero weight. Your criteria for a stock is not relevant. There's a reason he's spending countless hours in federal court and it's because he has the same ideas you do and that he thinks hes the law and makes the decisions. And there's a reason the rest of the department is not in federal court it's because we enforced laws on the books not laws we made up.

 

[freekforge]

Well, with that attitude, I certainly hope you aren't in law enforcement in any capacity.

The issue here is that chief was WRONG. It (at the time) wasn't considered an SBR and needed no paperwork.

If we have law enforcement officers, acting in an official capacity, just making up laws and then enforcing them on a whim, that would be the earmarks of a police state, not a constitutional republic.

To make it even better he had an ar pistol with the older style sig brace on it locked in the patrol car rifle rack. In other words rules for thee not for me.

 

[Creedmoor]

Well, with that attitude, I certainly hope you aren't in law enforcement in any capacity.

The issue here is that chief was WRONG. It (at the time) wasn't considered an SBR and needed no paperwork.

If we have law enforcement officers, acting in an official capacity, just making up laws and then enforcing them on a whim, that would be the earmarks of a police state, not a constitutional republic.

Hope you're not or ever have been a cop. Using your own words, show your work. How did you come to the conclusion that it's against the law? On multiple occasions the atf said it was perfectly legal even under a democrat president. At the time (summer 2017) I had a 2017 dated opinion letter saying i was gtg. Your opinion carries zero weight. Your criteria for a stock is not relevant. There's a reason he's spending countless hours in federal court and it's because he has the same ideas you do and that he thinks hes the law and makes the decisions. And there's a reason the rest of the department is not in federal court it's because we enforced laws on the books not laws we made up.

Well, its just one guys opinion with 40+ of NFA, when the brace started it was a just a tube.
No big deal with NFA, after a few generations it morphed into an adj stock with padded butt-plates. And with that it became a problem, its an SBR at that point.

SBR



SBR


Shockwave, also an SBR

Well, with that attitude, I certainly hope you aren't in law enforcement in any capacity.

The issue here is that chief was WRONG. It (at the time) wasn't considered an SBR and needed no paperwork.

If we have law enforcement officers, acting in an official capacity, just making up laws and then enforcing them on a whim, that would be the earmarks of a police state, not a constitutional republic.

Well your wrong, its been the Law of the Land since 1934 GCA. No if and or butt's my friend.
An "Opinion letter is not law, its an opinion and nothing more.

 

[freekforge]

@Creedmoor Again show your work. Show me where it is said in gca or nfa that a pistol brace is illegal. Show me in indiana code where it says a pistol brace is illegal. We have all the time in the world because it's not there. you said it yourself you "FELT" (post #31) and your "OPINION" (post #35). That's not how law enforcement works. I "felt" the guy that sexually assaulted a woman should be drug out in the street and shot but that's not the law. It is my "opinion" that Marijuana should be legal but that's not the law. You can't use your opinion and feelings to take people's freedom away. It seems you have zero grasp on law and the constitution. You would make an excellent atf agent though since you're willing to lock Americans in cages over a piece of plastic that was continually deemed legal.

 

[Creedmoor]

@Creedmoor Again show your work. Show me where it is said in gca or nfa that a pistol brace is illegal. Show me in indiana code where it says a pistol brace is illegal. We have all the time in the world because it's not there. you said it yourself you "FELT" (post #31) and your "OPINION" (post #35). That's not how law enforcement works. I "felt" the guy that sexually assaulted a woman should be drug out in the street and shot but that's not the law. It is my "opinion" that Marijuana should be legal but that's not the law. You can't use your opinion and feelings to take people's freedom away. It seems you have zero grasp on law and the constitution. You would make an excellent atf agent though since you're willing to lock Americans in cages over a piece of plastic that was continually deemed legal.

Go and read the 1934 Gun Control Act. It will be en-lighting.

But I'll help you a bit. Your Shockwave has a Butt-stock on it.

Right off Silencer Centrals website.

SBR vs. AR Pistol: Know the Difference – Silencer Central

In recent years two types of firearms have become increasingly popular, especially for owners of suppressors. They are the Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) and the AR pistol. Each one has its own advantages…

www.silencercentral.com

The chief difference between an AR pistol and an SBR is the brace vs. the stock. Rifle stocks were designed to be placed into the shoulder of the shooter to aid in accuracy and stability. They can be made of any hard, dense, or rigid material such as wood, plastic, or metal. Some stocks are in a fixed position, whereas others can be folded or otherwise collapsed to aid in storage or make them more easily portable.


A brace, on the other hand, was designed to aid in the one-handed shooting of a pistol. The design theory behind the brace was to aid disabled shooters by allowing them to strap the brace to an arm to counter the weight of an AR or AK type pistol.


An SBR must be registered with the Federal Government like a silencer or machinegun and the cost to make or transfer one is a $200 tax. Permission must be granted by the ATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) if the owner wishes to take it across state lines and the owner must complete a Form 20.

 

[freekforge]

@Creedmoor Would you look at that you won my argument for me cool. The Shockwave blade was designed to use straps or tension to aid in one handed shooting therefore its a brace. Even going off of your irrelevant personal definition of a stock it still does not fall into that definition of a stock. Adjustable? nope atf said with thread locker it was fixed. Butt plate? nope it's like 5/16" wide definitely not a butt plate. Padded butt plate? Nope harder than hell.

"A brace, on the other hand, was designed to aid in the one-handed shooting of a pistol. The design theory behind the brace was to aid disabled shooters by allowing them to strap the brace to an arm to counter the weight of an AR or AK type pistol."

-That's what it was designed for.

You grasping at straws and inserting your opinions does not change the fact that it was designed as and classified as a brace to aid in one handed shooting.

 

[BackFromDC]

I've never had a commissar ask for my papers, but I've never bumped into the commissariat while out shooting on the farm. I do keep a copy of my forms just in case someone wants to be legally pedantic.

 

[Beowulf]

Sometimes, gun owners are our own worst enemy.

Here we are, on a gun forum, having a fellow gun owner arguing for a super strict, over reaching, interpretation of an unconstitutional law.