At what point is it considered a stock and needs sbr paperwork?

[troy28]

As to my understanding, once the hole is drilled in an AR to put in the auto sear you have created a MG (even if the sear is not installed) and are getting a free vacation at club fed.

If you have a pistol and drill the holes to mount a stock but the stock is not installed. Is it considered a sbr as soon as you drill the hole or does it have to physically have the stock attached? Any links or cut and pasts regarding the actual law are greatly appreciated!

Thank you for the help!

 

[Stainer]

Do you have an extra stock set aside for it? this may be a contributing factor.

 

[troy28]

No, I am not out shooting with the pistol and happen to have a stock that fits the exact hole pattern with me just not attached.

 

[indykid]

Many of ATF's attacks on our rights deal with "intent". They often figure that just because you have a stock that just happens to fit a hole pattern on the rear of a pistol, that you have the intent to build a short barrel rifle, which according to the new second amendment requires a $200 blackmail fee paid along with the required paperwork.

Intent, a big word per ATF.

 

[r6vr6]

Once you confirm your setup runs as a pistol you might as well turn it into a sbr with a form 1 etc. I did and I love it.

 

[762minigun]

First off what exactly are you drilling on, with your hypothetical question?

 

[troy28]

First off what exactly are you drilling on, with your hypothetical question?

A general C3 discussion that became focused on turning an AK pistol into a SBR is what spurred the question. I only have experience with AR SBR in which you just swap the buffer tube and slap on a stock.

When I was asked the question it caught me off guard and I thought it was a good question. I understand all the "safer than sorry and error on the side of caution" answers to wait for the stamp before doing any modifications.

My goal of this post was to increase my education and make sure I am providing the most accurate information to some possible new comers to the SBR world. I have read posts in the past where more knowledgeable people than me have cut and paste various sections of the laws or have asked similar questions first hand to ATF.

 

[DownByTheTracks]

I don't have anything to paste, but if I were a cop and saw that you could screw the stock onto the pistol in a couple of minutes, I would say you had the makings for an SBR and it's time to go jail.

 

[ryknoll3]

I don't have anything to paste, but if I were a cop and saw that you could screw the stock onto the pistol in a couple of minutes, I would say you had the makings for an SBR and it's time to go jail.

With that reasoning, you would arrest everyone with an AR pistol. You can put a stock on those in less than 5 minutes.

There is a difference in the definition of a machine gun and a short-barreled rifle or shotgun.

Here is the machinegun definition:

(b) Machinegun
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

The difference between the definitions of a machine gun and a rifle, including a short-barreled rifle is that a machine gun is any weapon that shoots or can be readily restored to shoot more than one round per trigger pull, as well as parts exclusively used for this purpose. That is why drilling a hole in an AR for an autosear is considered making a machine gun. The AR, thusly driled is now "readily restored" to fire more than one round by a single function of the trigger. Rifles and SBR's are NOT defined this way. An AK pistol receiver with holes drilled for a stock is NOT an SBR because it is not considered an SBR until it is "designed to fire from the shoulder". Now, if you have both an AK pistol AND the stock, with no other means of lawful assembly (other AK rifles), it could be construed as constructive possession and you could be in trouble for having an SBR. Simply having stock holes drilled in a pistol do not make an SBR.

Another example that proves my point, the ATF has stated in an opinion letter that a person can take a REGISTERED SBR, remove the short barrel, temporarily install a longer barrel, and take the rifle over state lines without approval or even sell it as a Title I firearm. They do not allow the same with a machinegun, because even if you were to weld over the hole for the sear, the law considers a machine gun to be any weapon "readily restored", and the ATF considers anything that was ever a machinegun to be able to be "readily restored".

 

[techres]

You have a single AR pistol and also happen to have a collapsable stock for no rifle that you own, but that might just go on the AR = intent.

You have a single AR pistol and also an AR rifle, then you can have a stock and enjoy your plausible deniability.

You have an AK pistol with holes drilled in the back and a stock to match those holes. Then the prosecution is gonna get the conviction with very little work. You can dance options on the head of a needle all day, but the prosecution has 12 peers of yours that are (a) scared of your AK, and (b) not gonna listen to the AK owner talking lawyer when the "real" lawyer has already told them you are full of it.

So, I get where you are going. But if you are not careful, you may just get to go somewhere you don't like.

 

[tradertator]

^^As usual Techres, well said.

 

[DownByTheTracks]

With that reasoning, you would arrest everyone with an AR pistol. You can put a stock on those in less than 5 minutes.

There is a difference in the definition of a machine gun and a short-barreled rifle or shotgun.

Here is the machinegun definition:

(b) Machinegun
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

The difference between the definitions of a machine gun and a rifle, including a short-barreled rifle is that a machine gun is any weapon that shoots or can be readily restored to shoot more than one round per trigger pull, as well as parts exclusively used for this purpose. That is why drilling a hole in an AR for an autosear is considered making a machine gun. The AR, thusly driled is now "readily restored" to fire more than one round by a single function of the trigger. Rifles and SBR's are NOT defined this way. An AK pistol receiver with holes drilled for a stock is NOT an SBR because it is not considered an SBR until it is "designed to fire from the shoulder". Now, if you have both an AK pistol AND the stock, with no other means of lawful assembly (other AK rifles), it could be construed as constructive possession and you could be in trouble for having an SBR. Simply having stock holes drilled in a pistol do not make an SBR.

Another example that proves my point, the ATF has stated in an opinion letter that a person can take a REGISTERED SBR, remove the short barrel, temporarily install a longer barrel, and take the rifle over state lines without approval or even sell it as a Title I firearm. They do not allow the same with a machinegun, because even if you were to weld over the hole for the sear, the law considers a machine gun to be any weapon "readily restored", and the ATF considers anything that was ever a machinegun to be able to be "readily restored".

To go from AR pistol to AR rifle you typically need special wrenches and some parts to change it over. If the AK has the holes and it's a direct screw-on process I see that being much more "readily convertible".

 

[ryknoll3]

To go from AR pistol to AR rifle you typically need special wrenches and some parts to change it over. If the AK has the holes and it's a direct screw-on process I see that being much more "readily convertible".

Sort of true. You SHOULD use special wrenches, but a channel-lock pliers will spin the nut off. This is no different than needing a screwdriver to turn in screws for the stock. The only difference in parts between the pistol and rifle is a different buffer tube and a stock body. This is the same as having an AK stock lying around.

Also, the "readily converted" qualification is ONLY in the machinegun definition in the statute. The SBR and/or rifle definition has NO such qualification.

My point is, the AR is probably one of THE most easily converted to SBR of any rifle or pistol (except maybe the stock for the Glock that fits in the hole in the grip). If it were a problem to have such an easily convertible firearm, the ATF would've made requirements to keep them more permanently in pistol config (pinned, welded pistol buffer tube). They made AR mfg's jump through a few hoops to make the AR harder to convert to full auto (extra material left in lower in sear area or sear block or high shelf) but they did not do this with ability to be converted to SBR because "readily converted" is NOT in the SBR definition statute.


Bottom line... if you have an AK pistol, do NOT have a stock for it lying around until you have an approved Form 1 in your hand.