ATF: Immediate Revisions to Form 4473

[BJHay]

I just searched INGO and don't see that this has been posted. If this is a duplicate moderators can delete with my apologies.

ATF Form 4473 - Firearms Transaction Record Revisions | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Notice Regarding Recent Changes to the ATF Form 4473 Due to new statutory requirements set forth in both the NICS Denial Notification Act and the Bipartisan Safer Community Act (BSCA), and to reflect the implementation of ATF Final Rule 2021R-05F, ATF Form 4473 has been revised. Because the new...

www.atf.gov

"Due to new statutory requirements set forth in both the NICS Denial Notification Act and the Bipartisan Safer Community Act (BSCA), and to reflect the implementation of ATF Final Rule 2021R-05F, ATF Form 4473 has been revised. Because the new statutory requirements are designed to enhance public safety, and to ensure compliance with these provisions and Final Rule 2021R-05F, the Office of Management and Budget has provided emergency authorization to ATF to immediately use the revised Form 4473. ATF will be publishing the Revised Form for Notice and Comment Review in the coming months."

There are a lot of changes to digest.
Looks like it may have gone up a week ago and without the normal comment process (go figure- it's a public safety EMERGENCY)

 

[KellyinAvon]

The BS Communities Act... thanks Todd!

 

[shootersix]

21.c.: “Do you intend to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition in furtherance of any felony or other offense punishable by imprisonment for a term of more than one year, a Federal crime of terrorism, or a drug trafficking offense?”

Our tax dollars pay for people to think up questions like that one!

 

[Robert Richardson]

So now if you buy a firearm and don't like it for some reason, you can be charged with perjury if you decide to sell it? How long will you have to keep it before you decide to sell a firearm before intent to sell it is not an issue?

 

[ECS686]

So now if you buy a firearm and don't like it for some reason, you can be charged with perjury if you decide to sell it? How long will you have to keep it before you decide to sell a firearm before intent to sell it is not an issue?

No that’s not the case. Before the questions was a one line “are you the actual buyer” with this they have just expanded it to maybe snag folks that deal without a license.

And by dealing without a license means buying several a week or monthly and flipping them. Just getting a firearm for a family member as a gift or selling that gun in 6 months because the grip angle doesn’t work for you (or you want the next shiner new item worse) you are fine.

 

[Robert Richardson]

No that’s not the case. Before the questions was a one line “are you the actual buyer” with this they have just expanded it to maybe snag folks that deal without a license.

And by dealing without a license means buying several a week or monthly and flipping them. Just getting a firearm for a family member as a gift or selling that gun in 6 months because the grip angle doesn’t work for you (or you want the next shiner new item worse) you are fine.

Sure it does. Better read between the lines.

 

[ECS686]

Sure it does. Better read between the lines.

So show me where anything has changed in relation to selling a firearm as a private person (non dealer)? Selling a firearm to an individual is still legal in Indiana and by the Federal level as long as it’s another resident and a proper person per Indiana verbiage is there not?

While I get its BS with the under 21 yo getting automatically delayed and why you need to put a yes/no to city limits I wouldn’t believe all the gun channels either.

 

[Robert Richardson]

So show me where anything has changed in relation to selling a firearm as a private person (non dealer)? Selling a firearm to an individual is still legal in Indiana and by the Federal level as long as it’s another resident and a proper person per Indiana verbiage is there not?

While I get its BS with the under 21 yo getting automatically delayed and why you need to put a yes/no to city limits I wouldn’t believe all the gun channels either.

Sorry that you don't have a clue to what I'm referring to. It has nothing to do with what you are babbling about. I'm not wasting my time to explain it to you either. Bye.

 

[ECS686]

Sorry that you don't have a clue to what I'm referring to. It has nothing to do with what you are babbling about. I'm not wasting my time to explain it to you either. Bye.

Oh I know where you were trying to go I’m just not buying into ut.

 

[Nugget]

So now if you buy a firearm and don't like it for some reason, you can be charged with perjury if you decide to sell it? How long will you have to keep it before you decide to sell a firearm before intent to sell it is not an issue?

I think you focused too much on the intent to sell piece and overlooked the second part where it says "in furtherance of any felony..." If you're buying the gun for an improper person, for an unrelated minor, to rob a bank, to kill someone, etc, then you would absolutely be perjuring yourself.

I would think simply buying with intent to resell would be tough to prove though. If you buy the gun this morning, shoot it at the range this afternoon, and sell it tonight, the optics might not look great, but it would still be on the prosecutor to prove that you bought it specifically to try to sell it. If you're really worried about that, sell it for $1 less than what you paid and make the buyer flash his ID and pink card.

 

[CallSign Snafu]

I read the new form not a big difference from the old form. In regards to hose two extra questions, that stuff was already illegal they just wrote it on the form to appeal to the "somebody has to do something" crowd. No need to start getting out the tin foil hats just yet.

 

[Robert Richardson]

So happy that you all trust the powers that run the ATF.

 

[CallSign Snafu]

So happy that you all trust the powers that run the ATF.

This statement has nothing to do with what anyone has said. The thread is not about who "trusts" the ATF nor is the content of subsequent comments. It's about mild bureaucratic changes to 4473's. I am waiting for you to digress into various moon landing theories though.

 

[bwframe]

 

[bwframe]

 

[manifest destiny]

I can't imagine this question change affecting any person intent on committing a crime.
"Golly, I was gonna lie, but since ATF changed the wording, well, now I can't won't commit the crime I was otherwise going to commit." Said absolutely no bad guy ever. I can see it being abused if and when the ATF decides such abuse benefits the ATF.

 

[DadSmith]

The BS Communities Act... thanks Todd!

Some here voted for this.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I can't imagine this question change affecting any person intent on committing a crime.
"Golly, I was gonna lie, but since ATF changed the wording, well, now I can't won't commit the crime I was otherwise going to commit." Said absolutely no bad guy ever. I can see it being abused if and when the ATF decides such abuse benefits the ATF.

It won't. And people don't declare illegal income to the IRS either. *BUT* if there isn't a mechanism to do so then you can't criminally charge people who don't.

The people being prosecuted for straw purchases are overwhelmingly supplying criminal gangs.

 

[Robert Richardson]

I think you focused too much on the intent to sell piece and overlooked the second part where it says "in furtherance of any felony..." If you're buying the gun for an improper person, for an unrelated minor, to rob a bank, to kill someone, etc, then you would absolutely be perjuring yourself.

I would think simply buying with intent to resell would be tough to prove though. If you buy the gun this morning, shoot it at the range this afternoon, and sell it tonight, the optics might not look great, but it would still be on the prosecutor to prove that you bought it specifically to try to sell it. If you're really worried about that, sell it for $1 less than what you paid and make the buyer flash his ID and pink card.

Yes, intent may be hard to prove but, what does it cost them to charge you with it and what does it cost to defend yourself against it. This is my whole point. With the way the ATF interprets their rules, who knows what they can do.
Do you really think they added this to protect you and just go after the Stawman?

 

[Robert Richardson]

I think you focused too much on the intent to sell piece and overlooked the second part where it says "in furtherance of any felony..." If you're buying the gun for an improper person, for an unrelated minor, to rob a bank, to kill someone, etc, then you would absolutely be perjuring yourself.

I would think simply buying with intent to resell would be tough to prove though. If you buy the gun this morning, shoot it at the range this afternoon, and sell it tonight, the optics might not look great, but it would still be on the prosecutor to prove that you bought it specifically to try to sell it. If you're really worried about that, sell it for $1 less than what you paid and make the buyer flash his ID and pink card.

Ok, I buy a gun I don't like, I sell to someone who just " flashes me the pink and shows ID". Three months later it's found at a crime scene in Chicago. ATF visits me about the gun, I didn't record who I sold it to. No proof that I even sold it legally. Do you think the ATF will say, "Oh, ok. We are sorry to bother you, have a nice day"? Think about it.
If the ATF will go to point of knocking on someone's door requesting to see a gun that you just purchased, to see if you still have it, I wouldn't put anything pass them. It is all about how the ATF wants to interpret the rules that they made, not Congress.