ATF raid in Parker City - Ludco Gun Shop

[jsharmon7]

I think it would be a more accurate representation to say that the ATF is an evil group of liars.

The ATF has lied before.

The ATF has set people up before.

It is likely that they are continuing this habit and pattern.

Let's say that you believe the ATF (Which you apparently do). Have you asked yourself why the ATF should be able to, by their own admission, break federal law, and pay others to break federal law, for the sole purpose of trying to get their "target" to also break the law?

If you or I (assuming you don't work for ATF) were to go into a gun store and try to persuade the salesperson into selling a firearm without proper paperwork, do you think that only the saleperson would go to prison? Or, is it more likely that BOTH buyer and seller would go to prison? Why, then, if such an act is a federal felony when done by us, is it acceptable for the ATF to have felons perform the same activity in the name of "justice?" Government authority comes FROM us, and as such, how is it possible that we have granted them more authority than we ourselves have?

Where in the 9th and 10th Amendments does it grant federal employees power and authority superior to that of the citizens? Where in Article I, Section 8, does Congress have the ability to enable such activities?

You can turn a blind eye to ATF if you want, or even condone their actions and history wholesale, but you have to remember, that ATF is, at its core, a TAX enforcement agency, and is a part of Dept. of Treasury. Doesn't 70 federal agents (plus support personnel) seem excessive to enforce a TAX CODE? Or does it seem more like ATF's traditional grandstanding?

No, I don't work for the ATF. I have no more information on this situation than anyone else here. It's possible that the ATF acted illegally in making this arrest. It's possible that the ATF acted legally in making this arrest. Neither you nor I know the details of the arrest or of the sting providing probable cause for the arrest. Setting up a sting operation is a normal way for law enforcement to catch criminals, provided that's the way they did it. It certainly sounds like that's the way they did it. It's no different than a drug buy sting, or a prostitution sting. My point in addressing your post is that you appear to have no interest in accepting the truth should it differ from your opinion. You obviously have preconcieved opinions about the ATF and the only "truth" you will accept is the one you have already decided. Ludco himself could probably admit that he was doing it and you'd say the ATF coerced him into making a false statement.

To address your last point, it probably was overkill to sensationalize the situation. I don't really know though, but it would appear it's a possibility.

 

[mammynun]

every time i went in their i had to do the 4473 except when i bought that short barreled, FA, suppressed babby killan black gun with extended clips but seriously the ATF is super trustworthy

Cool! Did yours come with the thing that goes up?

 

[Yamaha]

The way things have been going the BATFU is more likely to send them to Mexico and sell them to the cartels.

This is more likely than melting them, and to the more than 2 people and a truck, a friend said he went by almost an hour ago and they were still there......lol

 

[korkskru]

great... i just bought an ar in there a couple months ago. hang on the door bell just rang........................

 

[thompal]

No, I don't work for the ATF. I have no more information on this situation than anyone else here. It's possible that the ATF acted illegally in making this arrest. It's possible that the ATF acted legally in making this arrest. Neither you nor I know the details of the arrest or of the sting providing probable cause for the arrest. Setting up a sting operation is a normal way for law enforcement to catch criminals, provided that's the way they did it. It certainly sounds like that's the way they did it. It's no different than a drug buy sting, or a prostitution sting. My point in addressing your post is that you appear to have no interest in accepting the truth should it differ from your opinion. You obviously have preconcieved opinions about the ATF and the only "truth" you will accept is the one you have already decided. Ludco himself could probably admit that he was doing it and you'd say the ATF coerced him into making a false statement.

To address your last point, it probably was overkill to sensationalize the situation. I don't really know though, but it would appear it's a possibility.

Anything is possible at this point, since we haven't heard anything except ATF's side of it.

One thing I keep coming back to is that ATF said that he repeatedly made sales to a conviced felon (who was working for ATF). Was Fred selling them without calling in the instant check? If so, then that is one thing.

Or, was he actually calling them in, and getting the "go ahead" by whatever federal agent is on the other end? If the feds were approving the sales in order to prove that he was making the sale, that would seem to be a different issue. If Fred KNEW (as ATF claims) that the guy was a convicted felon, but he got approved by the feds, who is to blame? Perhaps this is a ploy to not only score a big bust for publicity, but also to "prove" how "ineffective" the instant check system is.

Also, one article claimed ATF confiscated a large amount of ammo. Why? Is the presence of ammo in a gun store somehow to be construed as "evidence" that strawman sales happened????

Another thought came to mind while I was reading one of the articles. If someone PRETENDS to be a non-acceptable person and buys a firearm, but in reality, is an acceptable person, have you still violated the law?

But to answer your suggestion, yes I personally would assume that ATF is in the wrong. I sincerely believe that if you go by that premise, you will be correct more than half the time. Federal agencies are not presumed innocent until proven guilty, have NO Constitutionally guaranteed protections, and I think that ANY federal activity needs to be VERY carefully scrutinized by each and every person. That is doubly true when dealing with an agency which has a history of lies, deceit, ill-thought-out publicity stunts, and corruption.

Some people would approve of anything the ATF does, even if they were caught on camera raping a bus full of 5th graders, just because they are "the government." Some people of the more libertarian bent will DISapprove of anything the ATF does, simply because the ATF's very existence is an affront to the Constitution, and the rest will judge the ATF by what they are fed by the mainstream media (which is fed THEIR information by ATF directly). It's that last group which MUST very very carefully listen to what is said, read their Constitution, and judge for themselves if the ATF is in the right or wrong.

 

[thompal]

Long after all is said and done with this case, we will still be in mourning for all those guns that will probably get the torch. Who's the victim in a case like this?

Liberty? The Constitution?

According to the ATF, Fred committed the worst of crimes, which the government will prosecute like no other, and that is a crime against The State.

But seriously, maybe ATF just needed more guns to ship to Mexican drug gangs (for a tidy profit).

 

[E5RANGER375]

I think the ATF is illegal anyways, so everything they do is illegal. I certainly will never be the one cheering them on. I dont care if they are arresting bloods and crips. the ATF probly gave them the guns to kill each other in the first place. They will eventually come for all of us patriots. im sure they are kicked back reading this thread laughing.

 

[thompal]

I think the ATF is illegal anyways, so everything they do is illegal. I certainly will never be the one cheering them on. I dont care if they are arresting bloods and crips. the ATF probly gave them the guns to kill each other in the first place.

I had forgotten about that!!!!! Now if I could just remember what year that was. 91? 92?

 

[BISHOP2822]

O well, one less gun shop that sells firearms at high prices. I hope Dons is next. Just my 2 cents

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Yes, yes, ATFE is unconstitutional, no argument about that, but any word on what happened?

Indictments unsealed?

What's the beef, chief?

 

[thompal]

O well, one less gun shop that sells firearms at high prices. I hope Dons is next. Just my 2 cents

I think Don is safe during this administration. He still has a lot of "Chicago connections." Just sayin'

But seriously, I don't like people taking the "he got what he deserved" stance just because someone had high prices, or had less than stellar customer service. Don't wish government on people just because you don't like them. As humorous and personally satisfying as it would be to see Don led away in handcuffs on TV, it still would not be right if it resulted from an ATF setup.

And it's kind of difficult to even say that ATF should arrest him if he's been selling guns to gangs, since that's precisely what ATF has apparently been doing for a year or two with no repercussions. I would guess that ATF's actions along those lines have resulted in more murders than any by Don, except people care less because THOSE murders happened in Mexico and along the border. (except one Border Patrol agent was presumably killed by a gun ATF let the drug gangs have).

 

[snapping turtle]

I once saw a list of firearms used in crimes and where they were purchased. (I think it was a list out of IL). Don's was on it, Ludco was not on it, westforth sports, and Bradis was on it. There you go. A small gun shop in norther indiana (Westforth) a high profile dealer with commericals on TV (don's) a high volume dealer (Bradis).

I think he just had poor paperwork skills and poor customer service skills.

I know the investagators are brutal if they inspect on the records you keep. Had a friend who was a FFL when he was alive and he got a repremand about putting a period after the state abbrevation. He always said he loved running his little gun shop and gunsmith service but he needed a bookkeeper to make the paperwork all fall in line.

 

[level.eleven]

So..... how many of the 70 are going though his books and putting anyone who purchased from him on their watch list?

Ding. You just got a +1 in the algorithm.

 

[Jeff]

Who here works for the ATF?

 

[Que]

Who here works for the ATF?

Plead the 5th!

 

[brad81]

this sucks i've bought a few guns from him. time to sit back and wait

 

[holejack1]

sounds like they did an audit, found sloppy record keeping, and decided he had to go. the rest is easily fabricated.

 

[indyjohn]

great... i just bought an ar in there a couple months ago. hang on the door bell just rang........................

THATS FUNNY! But now you must go. There is no humor here, just hate...

 

[printcraft]

THATS FUNNY! But now you must go. There is no humor here, just hate...

 

[warmachine]

Is it really that hard to believe that someone broke the law and is now paying the consequences for it? I havent read more anti-government tin foil wearing wing nut statements before in my life. Really? The ATF set up Fred Ludington after 30+ years of selling guns and ammo? Come on, get real. It is more likely that this asshat or someone that works for him was doing something illegal. Flame away I dont care, but come on. Climb out of your bunkers and take off your gas mask. This is how guns make it to the streets, shady gun dealers doing straw purchases. And it didnt say he skipped the 4473 it said that someone else was filing out the paperwork, not the buyer.