August Atterbury AAR

[ol' Huff]

Here it is, post if you got em.

 

[ol' Huff]

Really good weather for this. Folks who avoided it from fear of having to get out in hot weather missed the best weather we had had for one.

7 shooters and several instructors shot. Most had not had KD opportunities before so I found their results pretty satisfying. Jason got a patch with a 34.

Attitudes were fantastic. Everyone was really positive. I dug the vibe. It had the same feel of spirit and camaraderie that the early Bedford shoots had.

Wind was gentle but a good mix of no value tail winds and full value winds. Nothing real stiff but we had several strings at 4 and 300 yards that required 3 or 4 moa adjustments. Improvement on the Redcoats was about 140 percent and improvement on the AQTs from Saturday afternoon to Sunday was about 230 percent. We had for of the 5 shooters new to KD in the 25 to 30 range by Sunday afternoon.

The Balloon Assault continues to be really popular but also terrifically difficult.

Two or three of the guys were prior service and were having some deep thoughts about shooting with a sling. Generally speaking when service members have come through the programs I have worked they have either really gotten into it or struggled with it. No middle ground.

At noon Saturday it was 12 degrees cooler than at noon at the June shoot.

Preparation on the shooters pay was excellent.

 

[linuxguy]

Here are some quick, unorganized thoughts.

This was my first KD, and only my second Appleseed.

I loved doing sighters out to 500 yards! I have dope for my rig now, I'll have that forever.

I just put my scope on my rifle a couple of weeks before the shoot, and had only taken it out to the range once to zero it. I didn't realize until I got down into prone a few times, at Atterbury, that I had mounted the scope too far back. I really had to twist my upper body to get my eye at the proper distance.

So I moved the scope Saturday night, knowing I would lose my zero. Regaining my zero was no problem Sunday morning, using IMC (inches, MIL for me , clicks) that I learned at Appleseed--I had a nice, solid zero after 3 sighter groups. However, what hurt me was that moving the scope (and repacking my gear into another rig that I hoped would be faster to pack/unpack) cost me quite a bit of sleep. I only got 2 hours of sleep Saturday night.

Sunday, I started out the day shooting a perfect score on the Redcoats--13 out of 13. Then on the first AQT, I believe I got a score of 29 (32 is required for patch). I thought--today's the day I'm going to get my patch.

However, I think that my lack of sleep quickly got to me, and fatigue in the sun. I got lazy and stopped getting a good NPOA. I had a nice scope, and as WildDeuce mentioned to me once in the afternoon, I think I stopped working to get a good NPOA because I could see the target so well--I just started trying to "fudge" it using muscles to fine-tune my aim, instead of getting a good NPOA and letting my bones support my rifle completely.

We shot 3 AQT's after lunch, and didn't get feedback from them until the end of the day. I was disappointed to see that my scores had just dropped out the bottom. I remember a 21 and a 22, I can't remember what the other one was.

The balloon exercise was a lot of fun, although I tripped myself up because I forgot about my chamber flag! I got all slung up, released the bolt, and pulled the trigger and--nothing. My chamber flag was caught under the bolt! The first time that happened, I was able to hold the bolt back and shake the flag out, and I still had time to get off maybe 5 or 10 rounds. The second time, not so much. The chamber flag was caught pretty good, and I had to take my hand off the pistol grip to get the flag out. That time, I had only time to squeeze off 2 rounds (although the first round found its target).

Again, I think my lack of sleep really hurt me there--if I had my wits about me, I probably would've remembered the chamber flag BEFORE I released the bolt!

Some takeaways for me:
1) ALWAYS get a good NPOA. Those timed drills mess me up, because I think I don't have time to get the NPOA. That timer's my worst enemy. I need to learn to QUICKLY get a good NPOA and then fall into the rifleman's cadence.

2) I need to get a better ruck sack. The rig I tried on Saturday had plenty of room for water, but not a lot of space for other things. I ended up spending a lot of time packing up my gear each time we had to move. So Sunday I tried a different rig, which had less space for water but lots of PAL webbing for MOLLE attachments. That was no better. I was always the last one packed up when it was time to move our gear. I need a medium ALICE pack, like several guys there had.

3) On Sunday, we picked up our gear and moved. A LOT. To facilitate faster packing/unpacking, I should have packed the following in a way that would have been quick to take out/put back in:

a) Scope dope (next time, I'll bring an index card that I can slip into my pocket)
b) I need to figure out how to carry my ammo in my pack. I carried a .50 cal ammo can, which was big enough for 250 rounds in stripper clips, 3 mags, and my mesh bag of brass (I was shooting .308, so the rounds were bigger). However, carrying the can separately meant that I had a hand tied up, and made it harder to pick up my rifle and drop it at each berm. Next time, maybe I should figure out how to carry the bulk of the ammo in my pack and keep 2 mags and 2 or 3 stripper clips in a pouch outside of the pack. I could even keep my index card with dope data in that same pouch.

4) It would have been nice to get AQT feedback sooner after each one that we completed. Perhaps if I had seen after the second AQT how bad my scores were getting, I would have known to focus more on NPOA in time to correct before the last two. Maybe yes, maybe no. I was in a fog--due to my lack of sleep--and not sure if I would have had the sense to make that correction or not.

5) I need to get an extended bolt release. Releasing the bolt was always an awkward affair because I had to take my right hand over top of the scope to push in the bolt release, which was also pretty stiff. Hopefully an extended bolt release will make it quick to release the bolt while my trigger hand is still in position.

6) Atterbury rocks.

7) ol' Huff rocks

8) All of the volunteers for the weekend--ol' Huff, the line bosses, the other instructors and instructors in training, the pit workers, the gal who was helping with administrative tasks--rock. I really appreciate the time these folks sacrifice to help shooters like myself improve.

9) This was my second appleseed, and I still learned quite a bit. My offhand position really has issues, and I got several good tips this weekend to improve it.

10) I loved the history. The Paul Revere book is on my to-read list.

Before I saw my AQT scores, I was thinking it might be a while before my next Appleseed. Now that I saw my scores, I think--I could have done much better. I want to go back for a day 2 just to shoot the AQT.

I've attended Appleseeds that were run by ATM and ol' Huff, and both were excellent. Indiana has some excellent instructors.

Huzzah!

 

[ol' Huff]

Not getting the dope at lunch was my doing and a conscious decision. Since we took the time to get precise come ups Sunday morning it sacrificed an opportunity for a fourth AQT. Since we had those come ups I elected not to wait for that dope and run with the dope we had. My one change to the weekend would have been waiting another 15 minutes after the second AQT to get that dope from the pits. I don't know if it would have done much for you on the last AQT but it really would have helped Thomas.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Preface:
Earlier this year I spent a lot of time and cash building a precision AR. I spent countless hours practicing, watching DVDs, reading books and sending rounds down range on my range and achieved what I thought was decent proficiency with it. I felt reasonably able to account for wind, manage my ballistic calculator, come ups, mil relation formulas, and master my cold bore shots feeling totally confident in my goal of making the required hits at 600 yards to advance in the competition I was preparing for. Needless to say, I never made it past the 400 yard line even after pinning my sighters. I knew that in order to really advance I had to get back to the fundamentals, frankly, a place maybe I never began with if I was honest about it.
I had heard of Appleseed three years ago out in Colorado in a small mountain town while fishing the Gunnison. Reading the flyer really piqued my interest though I never really had a chance to explore it further and was more focused on fishing than shooting at the moment. At the time I felt reasonable proficient with a rifle spending 8 years as an infantryman and I saw the Appleseed shoot as more of a challenge than an opportunity to learn.

Fast forward to today:
After the failed showing, I learned of an Appleseed opportunity through a friend at the local range I am a member at and signed up for Saturday only. Prior to the day of the shoot, I spent some time researching the Appleseed program and the skills they taught, still focused more on the shooting aspect while still interested in the history and the mission. I attended the shoot and my eyes were opened, my mind awakened to our heritage, and my evolution as a shooter began as I had found what I was looking for. I ended up shooting Rifleman on my first try.
After learning of the upcoming KD shoot, I saw it as a natural extension of the 25 meter course and another opportunity to add to and refine the skills I learned. I can get 900 yds. on my range at home so being able to shoot KD wasn't as much the draw as was the chance to hear the complete history and shoot with formal instruction and immediate feedback. Spending much of my formal marksmanship training shooting "crazy Ivan" pop ups and maybe 3 KD range sessions, I was really looking forward to it. I was also fresh off the Small Arms Firing School the weekend prior at Camp Perry and again was really jacked about applying all that I had learned so far throughout the summer.

The AAR:

As mentioned earlier, I spent a good amount of resources on building a rifle that I could not really run. With that in mind I dusted off the M16A2 clone I had built for nostalgia a few years back. It's a Rock river lower with an FN military industries upper and barrel with a 1:7 twist, about as "fundamental" as I can get, zeroed it at 25 meters per standard army doctrine, spent some time dry firing in the basement ,and some time on the range shooting at my steel IPSC silhouette in preparation. I was shooting Federal XM193 55 gr. 5.56mm fed through Lancer AWM and GI 20 round magazines.
I am not going to really hash out what we did, just some things that made an impression. The schedule pretty much echoed what was written in past AARs.

What I learned:

1. Get the rifle as much under your non firing arm. Thanks Huff, Goldfish and Wild Deuces for correction. Notice I named three people, habits are hard to break...
2. The demonstration of slow2speak with Huff and how the sling makes the rifle and shooter one.
3. Dragging wood/plastic can really make a difference once corrected.
4. I tried the 6 o'clock hold for the weekend and am still not sure having always used COM.
5. Got my GI sling set up to use the proper loop.
6. A pit called 1 MOA group is possible at 300 yds. with a sling and non free floated barrel.
7. Shooting a rifle is about consistent application of fundamentals and principles- the 6 steps.
8. The mil relation formula can be used the same with a front post as with a reticle (this was a real ah-ha man I feel stupid!! moment).
9. To spend a weekend on an active duty military base as a civilian practicing marksmanship training while keeping control of our rifles is an "American" experience, and should not be taken for granted in what it means in the context of the big picture.
10. Ol Huff quotes: "You pee or you shoot that's how we roll" "I don't want to influence people in their votes, I want to educate them" "A rifleman's memory is only 24 meters long" There was something about individuals, groups, communities, states, and country and how change affects them. I wish I could of remembered that and I apologize if I miss quoted you Huff.

Opportunities for improvement:
1. I wish there was more time spent on the data book and use of it. It was one of the goals I had for the weekend. I remember just hearing "write it down" and would of liked to go more in depth in its use. In all fairness it's not rocket science and I eventually figured out a system for myself before the first AQT.
2. The other goal I had was to learn about wind. The majority of the info I remember pertained more to .30 caliber rounds than the popular AR. You could spend a whole weekend on the wind so I wasn't expecting a lecture but I still don't feel too confident and will continue to use the Black Hills formula for .223 that I have in the past.
3. I wonder if IMC instruction should maybe come after the box drill so you know what the value of each adjustment is on your sight. I struggled with the IMC because I was not sure what the value of my adjustment was on my sight for the click portion and just got frustrated.
4. The pace on the AQT before lunch on Sunday was frustrating. More than once during my prep period I didn't have a target as they were still scoring and repairing it because we were moving so fast. I could of moved faster though at times myself.
5. The first line boss on Saturday could adjust his delivery a bit, it wasn't basic training and while novel for some it was annoying.
6. I took to heart the previous AAR about packing and went light but should of spent more time loading magazines.
7. As the previous post mentioned, it would have been nice to see the targets after the first post lunch AQT.

Overall:
I had a great time and met some great people. The whole event was run professionally and I look forward to the next opportunity. I really think the strength of the Appleseed program is obviously its people. I understand that they are all volunteers and only certain personnel get some reimbursement for expenses. For these folks to volunteer their time and resources for others speaks volumes about the conviction they have for their mission and the caliber of the person they have to represent their organization.
This KD event marked the end of my "Endless Summer" of shooting but really it has left me wanting, not out of lacking, but for the hunger to learn more. I really appreciate the Appleseed program and the mission they are promoting and have moved forward to spread the word within my circle of friends.
In the end I fell 1 point short of rifleman and that was the best I did all weekend and that made a 4 hour drive home even longer. But what I learned and experienced quickly soothed the disappointment and I can say I am better for having been there. We are privileged to have this program and its mission and I want to personally thank everyone involved for your time and effort, you are appreciated.

Sincerely,
Jeff

 

[ol' Huff]

Jeff, this was a great post and I really enjoyed it. I am sorry I hadn't seen it sooner but I guess when you modify a post it doesn't get marked as "new" so I didn't see it. I want to take the opportunity to touch on a couple of your comments.

"There was something about individuals, groups, communities, states, and country and how change affects them."

Our country is going pear-shaped. I asked 18 people on Saturday if they thought the country was getting better or worse. No single person said it was getting better. The country is sinking. Period. I think i know how we can save it. We have to take a hard look at ourselves and make a conscious decision to improve ourselves the individual. We need to look in the mirror and realize that we, the Citizen, are responsible for making things better. We have to improve ourselves. If we get better we will have a bunch of communities that have better people in them, and we can start making better communities. Better communities can make a better state. Better states can make a better country. If the country is getting better, then that is what Saving the Country looks like.

"1. I wish there was more time spent on the data book and use of it. It was one of the goals I had for the weekend. I remember just hearing "write it down" and would of liked to go more in depth in its use. In all fairness it's not rocket science and I eventually figured out a system for myself before the first AQT."

It isn't rocket science and it is something I have consciously decided not to spend more time on but its also funny. At the Wolf shoot in June we gave shooters an extensive handout that doubled as a databook but only about a third of the shooters used it. We had folks come in on Sunday morning who had not written down a single thing despite us taking the time to tell them what to write down and where. In the AARs of that event we had two somewhat conflicting principles. One was that the shoot went at too slow a pace, the other was that we didn't slow it down enough to spend more time talking about databooks. Its a bit of give and take. If a person is still learning a rifle, a databook is really key. I would even go so far as to say that, on my first few trips to Atterbury with my AR my databook was really the greater key to my experience than my rifle. The data collected being more valuable that the actual shooting (what came first, the chicken or the bacon flavored chicken?). Now I would say, having collected that data, the experience is far more rifle centered than databook centered. I have that data, now I need to be perfect behind the rifle for example. Appleseed Indiana actually has a full databook that can be purchased. Rifleman Databooks they are ten bucks and produced right here in the state. YHJ and I spent some time going over many databooks to decide what one needed and what one didn't need and this was what we came up with. I used to have 20 made and bring them with me to Atterbury to sell to shooters. Funny thing was, we used to do comeups on Saturday, and the shooters never bought them on Saturday but they BEGGED me for them on Sunday. Still, they couldn't get good data because we didn't do comeups again on Sunday. As a result, (and because it cost me a couple hundred bucks to get them made and the times when no one bought them I was poor for a couple weeks) I stopped bringing them and set it up so they could be purchased online. A databook is really valuable. Heck, just having comeups is really valuable. Pale Rider showed me his comeup sheet for his M4 and his M110 at the June shoot and I noticed that his data for his M4 was nearly identical to my own MForgery. I consider that a good sign that keeping a service rifle simple keeps it familiar.


"2. The other goal I had was to learn about wind. The majority of the info I remember pertained more to .30 caliber rounds than the popular AR. You could spend a whole weekend on the wind so I wasn't expecting a lecture but I still don't feel too confident and will continue to use the Black Hills formula for .223 that I have in the past."

Ironically I just put a post up about wind before I saw this one. Keep it simple. Give yourself 1 MOA per hundreds yards on a full value wind and ventilate em.


"3. I wonder if IMC instruction should maybe come after the box drill so you know what the value of each adjustment is on your sight. I struggled with the IMC because I was not sure what the value of my adjustment was on my sight for the click portion and just got frustrated."

If you hadn't had the IMC lesson would you have adjusted your sights at all? Some people won't even touch their sights. Some guys, you know the type, show up and insist on never adjusting their sights because they are "just where I want them." Generally they are three inches right at 25M. Why won't they adjust? The ugly truth is that most shooters don't understand MOA or how sights work. I hate to say it but 15 or 20 of these things a year and that reality has been the case far more often than not. The flip side of it is that I have a ten year old in my 4-H club who can look at any group and conduct IMC in his head in about ten seconds. If I had been there at ten imagine where I would be now? Still, the fact that you are looking at the Course of Fire that way is proof that you need to start instructing.


"5. The first line boss on Saturday could adjust his delivery a bit, it wasn't basic training and while novel for some it was annoying."

I can understand that. In this case, though, it has nothing to do with what the shooters want and everything to do with the Shoot boss getting exactly what he wants. An event like this from the SB's perspective is nothing like that of the shooter and can often only be seen when a person becomes a SB themselves. This is a sentiment that can be attested to by the other Shoot Bosses here. I can tell you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the other SBs on the line (Brown and Spitfire) would have selected the exact same Line Boss and here is why. On Saturday morning you need a LB who never misses a beat. they have to manage the RSOs effectively, they have to keep to the schedule effectively, they have to be rigid and unerring in their approach to safety. On a Saturday morning the shooters are a huge question mark. You may have a ton of good behaving, good listening shooters or it may be a pile of apes trying to fill diapers with oatmeal. As a Shoot Boss, you need a LB who you can trust to get the job done, get the shooters in a rhythm, and keep them from ventilating each other. It was no accident that brianheeter ran the line on Saturday morning. It was because he never misses a beat, never takes his eyes of his duty, is a rigid disciplinarian, and can be heard at both ends effectively. Unfortunately history has shown that some shooters can be uncommonly dumb. That is not meant to hurt anyone's feelings, its just the truth. It didn't turn out to be the case for this batch (though slim blurs the line somewhat). I once had a shooter who was a older lady. She refused to listen to any safety instruction or behave properly on the line. the reason was because the RSO in her area was a 15 year old girl. It happened to be a 15 year old girl whom I trust implicitly with safety, but the older woman would just not listen to a younger one. She only listened to adult males. It got so bad I had to pull her off the line and say, "Ma'am, all due respect, but my word here is the law. That young lady is my voice. If you cannot listen to her you cannot listen to me. Do what she says, when she says to do it, or go to the house." As a Shoot Boss, that is a painful moment. No one wants to be that way, no one wants to be a dick. That old lady didn't come back on Sunday, probably because what I had said chafed. I felt terrible doing it but that is what you have to do sometimes. A SB does not have the luxury of trusting new people on the line. We have to guarantee the safe operation of the line with our personnel and procedure. I guarantee you brian doesn't like to bark like that, but he does it because he knows that is exactly what I need him to do on a Saturday morning.

You need to get under a hat. We need your kind of help.

 

[Wild Deuce]

A review from a first timer (KD or Appleseed) ... in case anyone missed it.