Auto Start Whole House Generators?

[melensdad]

Anyone have one of the automatic start generators that kick on when there is a power outage?

I've currently got a manual start set up that runs on Natural Gas and am looking to switch to an auto-start unit. Anyone have experience with these?

 

[bigcraig]

I have hauled quite a few, but my knowledge on them is greatly lacking.

That said, you might be able to convert your manual to an auto start, I recall over hearing a conversation by an installer about doing this, but it was a couple of years ago.

 

[melensdad]

...you might be able to convert your manual to an auto start, I recall over hearing a conversation by an installer about doing this, but it was a couple of years ago.

I never thought of that!

My generator is already hooked up to the NG fuel supply, already has an electric starter, so it would likely need some sort of sensor and selanoid to trip the starter in the event of a power failure. My system is set up for "critical" circuits rather than "whole house" and requires a manual flip of a switch, not sure what an auto-switch would entail but if it could be done then it would likely be a lot cheaper than replacing the whole unit. Mine already pushes out 12,000 watts so capacity is not much of an issue, still I'd like to consider going up in size to about 20K so I could run an AC unit too.

 

[jbhummer2]

I would start with looking at Generac Generators. they have a nice selection of generators. Lots of Fire stations have them. Ours does and we have had great luck with ours at the station. ours is a 25k and runs everything there without even working hard. It starts 10 seconds after the power goes out you have power in another 10 seconds. so you are only out for 20 seconds. You can find a lot on Ebay and I think Lowe's has them to.

 

[4sarge]

You need to add an ATS Automatic Transfer Switch

 

[4sarge]

Generac 5875 comes with the ATS 20K

Generac Guardian 5875 Standby Generator - Series™ 5875 - 20kW Smart Circuit Standby Generator System (Aluminum Enclosure)

 

[jblomenberg16]

I'm considering this one for our new home...


Cummins Onan



Of course I'm biased because I work for Cummins, but these really are great products, and the "Onan" brand has a very strong name in the industry.

 

[4sarge]

I'm considering this one for our new home...


Cummins Onan



Of course I'm biased because I work for Cummins, but these really are great products, and the "Onan" brand has a very strong name in the industry.

If I worked there and got a discount but they are twice the price

 

[Woodsman]

I never thought of that!

... My system is set up for "critical" circuits rather than "whole house" and requires a manual flip of a switch, not sure what an auto-switch would entail but if it could be done then it would likely be a lot cheaper than replacing the whole unit. ...

With the ATS, wouldn't the critical circuits actually be on (fridge, heat, etc) even if you are not home? The lights, etc would already be off so if the utility supplied power took a dump, the genset would still power-up your critical circuits that were in use. When that happened, you could simply flip the breakers off that were non-critical to prevent overloading the genset.

Unless I'm not seeing something, it sounds like you already have a 99% solution except for the ATS.

 

[jeremy]

You should be able to add an ATS (automatic Transfer Switch) to your current Generator (based off the information that it is an Electric Start unit).

Two things to do gained from my experience...
1. Have a % load Meter and and Hour Meter installed inside the house near the breaker panel. You do not want to exceed 80% capacity on a Generator. These two simple thongs can greatly increase the longevity of your unit.
2. Install a light somewhere convenient in your home to let you know the switch has turned power over to your back up power plan.

 

[melensdad]

Generac 5875 comes with the ATS 20K

Generac Guardian 5875 Standby Generator - Series™ 5875 - 20kW Smart Circuit Standby Generator System (Aluminum Enclosure)

I'm considering this one for our new home...
Cummins Onan

I would love to hear someone give a comparison of these brands. I know that ONAN pretty much owns the market for generators in RV/motorhomes, they own the market for generators in yachts, and I think the US military also favors the brand. The price is a bit more than the far more common Generac, which can now be found at hardware stores so prices/parts for the Generac would probably be lower and easier to obtain if needed (then again I've not needed any parts on my 10 year old Generac/B&S generator).

What are the advantages of the ONAN over the GENERAC or visa-versa?

 

[jblomenberg16]

I would love to hear someone give a comparison of these brands. I know that ONAN pretty much owns the market for generators in RV/motorhomes, they own the market for generators in yachts, and I think the US military also favors the brand. The price is a bit more than the far more common Generac, which can now be found at hardware stores so prices/parts for the Generac would probably be lower and easier to obtain if needed (then again I've not needed any parts on my 10 year old Generac/B&S generator).

What are the advantages of the ONAN over the GENERAC or visa-versa?

I'll see if I can find you some comparison materials. I work in the division that makes the much larger engines for the big sets (1000kw, or the kind that run the whole neighborhood ).

But in short, Generac does a very good job of meeting the market niche for low initial purchase price, and is generally going to have acceptable quality for the price point, especially in that most of these sets are rarely used.

The Onan brand is the High quality market offering, offering very high quality, and increased feature content for a customer who is willing to pay a bit more for added piece of mind and added features. They are also the generator of choice for those who will be using it on a frequent basis (such as the RV market, contractor, or military applications). The quality of components and durability of the product will likely be superior to the Generac.


To be clear, the Generac sets are very popular, and they do a good job meeting the market need: Low initial cost, and acceptable reliability for the very low use customer.


In making your decision, you might consider the anticipated frequency and duration of power outtages, as well as the amount of load you'll want to run during those outtages.

 

[MarkR]

I have a Generac 25kw standby generator that runs on NG. The Cummins / Onan were way too expensive. Another brand to consider is Kohler. They have great reviews, but were hard to find locally.
We went with the Generac because of price and availability of both the genset and the electrician's experience installing them. I also went with the more expensive 1800rpm liquid cooled engine as opposed to the 3600 rpm air cooled. It's more expensive, but is much quieter, more reliable, and has a much greater life span. The models that are sold as a "package" or that you see at Lowes are almost always the smaller, 3600 rpm air cooled sets. THey also have smaller transfer switches (I think 100 amp?).
I have no regrets - if I can answer any specific questions based on our experience, I'd be glad to.

 

[4sarge]

I have a Generac 25kw standby generator that runs on NG. The Cummins / Onan were way too expensive. Another brand to consider is Kohler. They have great reviews, but were hard to find locally.
We went with the Generac because of price and availability of both the genset and the electrician's experience installing them. I also went with the more expensive 1800rpm liquid cooled engine as opposed to the 3600 rpm air cooled. It's more expensive, but is much quieter, more reliable, and has a much greater life span. The models that are sold as a "package" or that you see at Lowes are almost always the smaller, 3600 rpm air cooled sets. THey also have smaller transfer switches (I think 100 amp?).
I have no regrets - if I can answer any specific questions based on our experience, I'd be glad to.

MarkR, great report. I'm interested, could you PM me some info about who installed, cost of install and did you buy the unit direct or was it a dealer installed package set up - Thanks

 

[bigus_D]

I have been actively researching this subject over the past few weeks. I am poised to make a purchase this week.

I looked primarily at the GE units and the Generac units. From 10,000 feet, they seem nearly identical. They seem to all come with the automatic transfer switch these days. I'm doing 16kW to power 16 critical circuits. This will include my AC (well, sump pump, fridge, freezer, microwave, power to gas oven, some lights, and some outlets)

The dealers I found on the GE website all directed me to the Generac units. Seems like these are the most common around here. The one I'm going with will install a Bryant unit, however. This is exactly the same machine but with different stickers. The only difference (outside of the labeling) is the warranty. If sold as a Bryant, a major engine malfunction is an automatic replacement instead of a repair. A Generac dealer would have to break down and rebuild the engine to replace a bad piston for instance, whereas the Bryant unit will just need to be swapped out.

I'll be having the dealer install everything. It looks like the units can be found for less online, but this guy's labor cost was reasonable. The price difference between quotes I received for similar units was quite large...

 

[4sarge]

I was looking at a Generac air cooled LP 20KW with 200 amp ATS for 4,300 delivered + Install (electrical) of the ATS. The local REMC is using this unit and they are on a massive campaign (50% off) unit & install for 3000 dollars. BUT, I'm not in their assigned district and my sister REMC offers nothing


Bigus, are these numbers in the ballpark?

 

[bigus_D]

Bigus, are these numbers in the ballpark?

This website sells the 20kW unit I was considering:
Generac Guardian 5875 Standby Generator - Series™ 5875 - 20kW Smart Circuit Standby Generator System (Aluminum Enclosure)

I understand that to be the price all in, delivered to your driveway. All installation is on top of that. There is some plumbing (gas lines) and some electrical to complete in addition to putting in a concrete base. Also you have to get a battery (another $100). The first quote I got for this unit installed was about another $4000 over that number. They just quoted me all-in installed, so I questioned them as to why their installation costs, having found the unit cost online, were so high... I could see $1000 of install but not $4000. They just said that is the number and wouldn't budge.

Anyhow, the 16kW installed will run me about $5,300 (I don't have that model number). He quoted it at $700 labor + about $300 for extra parts (wiring, base, battery). So, he's marked up the price from what I can find online a bit but has reasonable install. For the 20kW unit, his install went up a bit more as did the unit. I didn't have him finish estimating the cost as I could see the unit cost difference was significant enough to keep me in the lower unit.



I feel pretty good about that quote. I might be able to get it done cheaper by buying the unit myself and contracting out the install... but I'm ready to be done thinking about this project. I don't think it is unreasonable, but hope I won't be taking one in the rear.

 

[4sarge]

This website sells the 20kW unit I was considering:
Generac Guardian 5875 Standby Generator - Series™ 5875 - 20kW Smart Circuit Standby Generator System (Aluminum Enclosure)

I understand that to be the price all in, delivered to your driveway. All installation is on top of that. There is some plumbing (gas lines) and some electrical to complete in addition to putting in a concrete base. Also you have to get a battery (another $100). The first quote I got for this unit installed was about another $4000 over that number. They just quoted me all-in installed, so I questioned them as to why their installation costs, having found the unit cost online, were so high... I could see $1000 of install but not $4000. They just said that is the number and wouldn't budge.

Anyhow, the 16kW installed will run me about $5,300 (I don't have that model number). He quoted it at $700 labor + about $300 for extra parts (wiring, base, battery). So, he's marked up the price from what I can find online a bit but has reasonable install. For the 20kW unit, his install went up a bit more as did the unit. I didn't have him finish estimating the cost as I could see the unit cost difference was significant enough to keep me in the lower unit.

I feel pretty good about that quote. I might be able to get it done cheaper by buying the unit myself and contracting out the install... but I'm ready to be done thinking about this project. I don't think it is unreasonable, but hope I won't be taking one in the rear.

You did good at 700 dollars. The REMC does not install a base, the Generac's is built in and they include the battery in the cost. I found the same thing when the install + unit costs do not add up. I do not mind paying 100 dollars an hour for a skilled electrician but this should be a 5 hour job tops. Much different than the labor costs quoted. Can you send me the dealers name, I may very well ask for a quote

 

[melensdad]

I notice that there are different types of transfer switches.

There is a "service entrance" transfer switch and there is an "automatic" transfer switch. Both seem to automatically switch on the generator, both seem to switch from utility power to generator power . . . and then back again when utility power is restored.

So what is the real or practical difference between these types of switches?

Automatic => Automatic Transfer Switch - Asco Transfer Switch

Service Entrace Rated => Automatic Transfer Switch - Asco Transfer Switch

 

[bigus_D]

I notice that there are different types of transfer switches.

There is a "service entrance" transfer switch and there is an "automatic" transfer switch. Both seem to automatically switch on the generator, both seem to switch from utility power to generator power . . . and then back again when utility power is restored.

So what is the real or practical difference between these types of switches?

Automatic => Automatic Transfer Switch - Asco Transfer Switch

Service Entrace Rated => Automatic Transfer Switch - Asco Transfer Switch

I could be mistaken, but the conversation I was having with the installer gave me the following impression.

The service entrance rated switch basically goes before your breaker box. Basically the breaker panel will receive power from either the main service line or from your generator.

The basic switch supplies power to your critical ciruits directly... This could be every ciruit on your panel or just some of them... but it pigtails onto each circuit individually instead of replacing the entire main line.

Again, I could be completely off base, this was just my layman's understanding.