Barbarians in Control: Open Season on LEOs

[Bapak2ja]

What impact has our legal system had on this degeneration of respect for law and LEOs? Has our legal system's emphasis on the technical aspects of the law, and adhering to every jot and tittle or dismissing the case, made the barbarians more bold and brazen because they know they will not be punished beyond being given free room and board, with ready access to weight rooms, TVs, drugs, and sex for the rest of their lives? Would a return to common sense in the courtroom, where discovery of guilt or innocence is the primary concern rather than meeting every letter of the law, followed by swift punishment commensurate with the crime, deter such brazenness?

 

[Hammerhead]

What impact has our legal system had on this degeneration of respect for law and LEOs? Has our legal system's emphasis on the technical aspects of the law, and adhering to every jot and tittle or dismissing the case, made the barbarians more bold and brazen because they know they will not be punished beyond being given free room and board, with ready access to weight rooms, TVs, drugs, and sex for the rest of their lives? Would a return to common sense in the courtroom, where discovery of guilt or innocence is the primary concern rather than meeting every letter of the law, followed by swift punishment commensurate with the crime, deter such brazenness?

It's true that justice suffers when criminals go free, for whatever reason. I have no personal experience with the criminal system, so I can't say for certain what should return to courtrooms, or what punishments should be meted out for various crimes. I can give my personal opinion, that justice should be swift, decisive, and that "Club Fed" should not be where criminals end up. They are not there for vacations, they are there for punishment and/or rehabilitation.

Common sense isn't so common, and sometimes criminal law contradicts common sense. Does this hinder true justice? I believe in certain cases that it does. Eye for an eye doesn't always provide true justice either.

It is possible that reforms should be made to the justice system that can put true justice and common sense back into courtrooms. I wonder sometimes (and I'm sure lawyers do too) if the law is too complicated and should be simplified. As has been said on here before, sometimes the law is so confounding and not understandable that you could be legal per certain state laws, but the local ordinances could be where you get nailed. The same is true in every state in our nation.

And I'm not busting anyone's chops, but there also seems to be somewhat of the thought on the street from those LEOs on the front lines at times that justice is served by a "arrest 'em first and sort it out later" system of dealing with crime, criminals and the law/justice. Whether it's due to the police being burned by poor choices in the past, or the fear of reprisal for any number of reasons that common sense on the front lines can be lost as well. Sometimes this affects individual citizens (see any number of discussions on here about LEO interactions, cough, cough) and sometimes it affects the whole system.

Weird thing is, my wife just finished her final college course (yay graduation!) of Sociology and the Law with a paper discussing almost this exact topic. Her thoughts kind of boil down to "true justice is in the eye of the beholder" (or beer holder ) as justice is seen from so many different perspectives, from we the public whether as observers or participants, to LEOs, to lawyers, to judges, to juries. It's hard to say where true justice in the eyes of everyone will really be equal.

We can only hope that one day, society will progress enough to come to a point where everyone believes justice is served equally and properly.

As far as how criminals feel, yes, if they believe they're not going to suffer, they can feel more brazen. Why worry when the harshest you get will be going to a place where you can learn from "professional criminals" to become a better criminal, or are able to hire a scumbag lawyer (sometimes they serve their purpose, often, they're just scumbags) that can get you off with a technicality. Why be concerned when for the sake of brevity and "reform" that you're just slapped on the wrist, and let go with a "don't do that again" warning. Criminals don't care if they break laws. That's why they're criminals. When the justice system fails for one reason or another, they see it as a chance to continue to do as they please.

There's a comedian that does a bit about being a lawyer, and how he can charge so little for fees, because criminals keep doing stupid things and getting caught, that he works on volume. Truth isn't too far off. Criminals will keep doing crimes because they don't care, and as they build confidence, they can become so brazen as to perpetrate the type of crime as brought up in the OP.

 

[GeneralCarver]

Great point (to thread starter). And the supreme court has reminded us of this in that police are not liable for your safety. No one is going to get in trouble when you get wasted and they come to clean up the mess.

And now on to this comment..

Too often being an obvious capable guardian means being the first one hit.

Police and uniformed (static esp) guards get shot first by people they don't even know are threats.....why does any civilian choose to OC?

Well, OC is a political statement. A vast majority of people OC and nothing happens to them. So, unlike you, others are willing to take the risk to remind others we got to right to BEAR arms also. OCing is the fastest way to get your gun. OC can deter people from attacking from you. Some people will not want to face an armed opponent (at least the smart ones) Finally, what makes you think your "safer" from not being targeted from concealed carrying? Look, the more people we got around our towns packing heat in the open.. the safer our communities will be overall.

 

[ATM]

Just FYI, the OC/CC discussion has moved on to a new thread here:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...122783-a_friendly_discussion_of_oc_vs_cc.html

 

[Blackhawk2001]

What impact has our legal system had on this degeneration of respect for law and LEOs? Has our legal system's emphasis on the technical aspects of the law, and adhering to every jot and tittle or dismissing the case, made the barbarians more bold and brazen because they know they will not be punished beyond being given free room and board, with ready access to weight rooms, TVs, drugs, and sex for the rest of their lives? Would a return to common sense in the courtroom, where discovery of guilt or innocence is the primary concern rather than meeting every letter of the law, followed by swift punishment commensurate with the crime, deter such brazenness?

Unfortunately, the rules of investigation, evidence, interrogation, prosecution, defense, and trial conduct have been twisted so badly by competitive cops and lawyers who want to win at any cost, that the very concept of "justice" has been perverted. In fact, it has been perverted so successfully and so often that we laymen often can't tell a "good" conviction from a "bad" one.

While it may be a proven fact (instead of a theory) that "education reduces recidivism", often enough all education does for a convicted criminal is teach him how to commit crimes better. I would certainly favor the Texas Prison System over most others I have seen; prisoners have to work to eat. However well meaning, we've created a "criminal class" to go along with the "uneducated class" that helps breed them. Neither will be reduced until we remove the incentives that encourage their behavior.

 

[buckstopshere]

This is really a complicated web of several issues (oc versus cc imo is not one of them - save it for another thread) and I think that you have to address several things and not focus just on the one.

I like the posts on here about swift justice commensurate with the crime. Kill somebody, convicted by a jury of peers, go to the gas chamber.

I also think Chicago and other cities are dealing with a more desperate criminal due to the economic times we find ourselves as well as this sense of entitlement that so many seem to hold dear. You want basic every day necessities, go to work. If you want "stuff" get a better job or work two. Taco Bell, McD's, etc...are hiring all the time.

As stated earlier, the "prison life" isn't so bad for some criminals as it's a higher standard of living than what they have now. Instead of working their way out of it, they want to short cut or are willing to trade away their freedom for 3 hots and a cot, cable tv, healthcare, etc... We make prison way too comfortable for these guys.

What culpability does the CPD have in this? There are plenty of stories about jack boot thug cops in that city. You can't say that all CPD officers are bad but you also can't say they are all good. At some point, you can only push people so far before they stop caring.

Case in point: My friend and I were outside of Smith and Wolinski's after an awesome porterhouse steak having a smoke. A homeless guy is walking by singing the temptations with a big grin on his face. Minding his own business. We start to sing so he stops and the three of us are now singing together. Yes, alcohol was involved. The guy does not ask for money, doesn't ask for a smoke, doesn’t ask for anything. He walks 25 feet from us and a CPD officer runs across the street and tackles him. Screams at him to drop his bags and tells him repeatedly to comply. All the while this cop is on top of the homeless guy. Since the bags are not dropped, the cop starts hitting the guy with an open hand in his face. When it's all said and done, there was nothing inside the bags but more bags. No food, drugs, or liquor. Nothing but more bags.

The cop comes up to Smith and Wolinski's to use the bathroom to remove the blood from his hands and asks me why I gave that guy money. I told him we didn't give him anything and he didn't ask for anything. I asked him why he gave that man a beat down and he said that panhandling in this part of town is against the law. I tried to explain that he wasn't pan handling but he wanted to hear no part of it. He just told me and my friend to stay away from homeless people. I got his name and badge number and filed a complaint.

Sorry for the long story but if things are going to change, there needs to be change on both ends to protect these LEOs.

We gotta stop making it easy to be a criminal but we also have to stop making it easy for LEOs to abuse their powers. Glad I live in Indianapolis!

 

[clgustaveson]

This is really a complicated web of several issues (oc versus cc imo is not one of them - save it for another thread) and I think that you have to address several things and not focus just on the one.

I like the posts on here about swift justice commensurate with the crime. Kill somebody, convicted by a jury of peers, go to the gas chamber.

I also think Chicago and other cities are dealing with a more desperate criminal due to the economic times we find ourselves as well as this sense of entitlement that so many seem to hold dear. You want basic every day necessities, go to work. If you want "stuff" get a better job or work two. Taco Bell, McD's, etc...are hiring all the time.

As stated earlier, the "prison life" isn't so bad for some criminals as it's a higher standard of living than what they have now. Instead of working their way out of it, they want to short cut or are willing to trade away their freedom for 3 hots and a cot, cable tv, healthcare, etc... We make prison way too comfortable for these guys.

What culpability does the CPD have in this? There are plenty of stories about jack boot thug cops in that city. You can't say that all CPD officers are bad but you also can't say they are all good. At some point, you can only push people so far before they stop caring.

Case in point: My friend and I were outside of Smith and Wolinski's after an awesome porterhouse steak having a smoke. A homeless guy is walking by singing the temptations with a big grin on his face. Minding his own business. We start to sing so he stops and the three of us are now singing together. Yes, alcohol was involved. The guy does not ask for money, doesn't ask for a smoke, doesn’t ask for anything. He walks 25 feet from us and a CPD officer runs across the street and tackles him. Screams at him to drop his bags and tells him repeatedly to comply. All the while this cop is on top of the homeless guy. Since the bags are not dropped, the cop starts hitting the guy with an open hand in his face. When it's all said and done, there was nothing inside the bags but more bags. No food, drugs, or liquor. Nothing but more bags.

The cop comes up to Smith and Wolinski's to use the bathroom to remove the blood from his hands and asks me why I gave that guy money. I told him we didn't give him anything and he didn't ask for anything. I asked him why he gave that man a beat down and he said that panhandling in this part of town is against the law. I tried to explain that he wasn't pan handling but he wanted to hear no part of it. He just told me and my friend to stay away from homeless people. I got his name and badge number and filed a complaint.

Sorry for the long story but if things are going to change, there needs to be change on both ends to protect these LEOs.

We gotta stop making it easy to be a criminal but we also have to stop making it easy for LEOs to abuse their powers. Glad I live in Indianapolis!

Im not sure I follow...

You are blaming the slaughtered LEOs or suggesting they had it coming?

No matter how off-base you become you bever have that coming...

 

[buckstopshere]

Im not sure I follow...

You are blaming the slaughtered LEOs or suggesting they had it coming?

No matter how off-base you become you bever have that coming...

Wow! Nice use of a loaded question there pal. The spirit of this discussion as I took it was to have a conversation about why criminals are becoming less afraid of going after police officers in Chicago. I didn't say or imply that anyone has "that coming". I don't wish death on anyone especially in such a senseless mannor.

I'll make my point one more time for the cheap seats. If you want this to change then you have to examine your own behavior as well in creating this aggression. That by no means implies it's ok to shoot a police officer.

I offered several other changes and even stated the old 80/20 rule. Why don't you read the whole thing and take the whole context instead of picking one part out and implying it meant something other than what it did. Perhaps you should go work for MSNBC.

 

[Bapak2ja]

This is really a complicated web of several issues (oc versus cc imo is not one of them - save it for another thread) and I think that you have to address several things and not focus just on the one.

I like the posts on here about swift justice commensurate with the crime. Kill somebody, convicted by a jury of peers, go to the gas chamber.

I also think Chicago and other cities are dealing with a more desperate criminal due to the economic times we find ourselves as well as this sense of entitlement that so many seem to hold dear. You want basic every day necessities, go to work. If you want "stuff" get a better job or work two. Taco Bell, McD's, etc...are hiring all the time.

As stated earlier, the "prison life" isn't so bad for some criminals as it's a higher standard of living than what they have now. Instead of working their way out of it, they want to short cut or are willing to trade away their freedom for 3 hots and a cot, cable tv, healthcare, etc... We make prison way too comfortable for these guys.

What culpability does the CPD have in this? There are plenty of stories about jack boot thug cops in that city. You can't say that all CPD officers are bad but you also can't say they are all good. At some point, you can only push people so far before they stop caring.

Case in point: My friend and I were outside of Smith and Wolinski's after an awesome porterhouse steak having a smoke. A homeless guy is walking by singing the temptations with a big grin on his face. Minding his own business. We start to sing so he stops and the three of us are now singing together. Yes, alcohol was involved. The guy does not ask for money, doesn't ask for a smoke, doesn’t ask for anything. He walks 25 feet from us and a CPD officer runs across the street and tackles him. Screams at him to drop his bags and tells him repeatedly to comply. All the while this cop is on top of the homeless guy. Since the bags are not dropped, the cop starts hitting the guy with an open hand in his face. When it's all said and done, there was nothing inside the bags but more bags. No food, drugs, or liquor. Nothing but more bags.

The cop comes up to Smith and Wolinski's to use the bathroom to remove the blood from his hands and asks me why I gave that guy money. I told him we didn't give him anything and he didn't ask for anything. I asked him why he gave that man a beat down and he said that panhandling in this part of town is against the law. I tried to explain that he wasn't pan handling but he wanted to hear no part of it. He just told me and my friend to stay away from homeless people. I got his name and badge number and filed a complaint.

Sorry for the long story but if things are going to change, there needs to be change on both ends to protect these LEOs.

We gotta stop making it easy to be a criminal but we also have to stop making it easy for LEOs to abuse their powers. Glad I live in Indianapolis!

Barbarians sometimes wear uniforms. Punishment should be swift and commensurate with the crime.

BTW, the old adage "an eye for an eye" never meant that that punishments should be cruel and unusual. It meant that the punishment should be appropriate to the crime committed. For example, it would be inappropriate to hang someone for stealing a loaf of bread, or to cut off a hand for stealing a a cluster of grapes. These examples would be a case of "an eye for a broken finger nail."

Unfortunately, the rules of investigation, evidence, interrogation, prosecution, defense, and trial conduct have been twisted so badly by competitive cops and lawyers who want to win at any cost, that the very concept of "justice" has been perverted. In fact, it has been perverted so successfully and so often that we laymen often can't tell a "good" conviction from a "bad" one.

While it may be a proven fact (instead of a theory) that "education reduces recidivism", often enough all education does for a convicted criminal is teach him how to commit crimes better. I would certainly favor the Texas Prison System over most others I have seen; prisoners have to work to eat. However well meaning, we've created a "criminal class" to go along with the "uneducated class" that helps breed them. Neither will be reduced until we remove the incentives that encourage their behavior.

I believe the judicial system contributes to the problem. Barbarians know they will not be punished, so they are emboldened to continue the uncivilized behavior. Society gives them excuses so they can assert "It's not my fault!" and escape responsibility for their actions. Our society will continue to disintegrate as long as personal responsibility is denied.