Being disarmed

[actaeon277]

They just swept you with a loaded weapon they apparently didn't know how to operate, and don't understand the 4th amendment and its exceptions.
What does it take then?
An ND?
Confiscation of property and making you go to court to get it?

 

[Concerned Citizen]

Are you asking what it would take to get me "all butt-hurt" over the situation? Yeah, a ND would have definitely done it. Actually, there was a confiscation of weapon on that interaction. My LTCH was expired by 32 days, and I didn't realize it. I had to go down to the city/county building to get it back. Even then, it also my understanding that it was 'officer discretion' on the confiscation.

The whole thing pissed me off, but not to the point of me seeking out Guy Relford to seek punitive damages.

Yes, I could have gotten in their faces and told them how much I thought they were idiots for their sloppy weapon handling, and how an even half-decent cop wouldn't have disarmed me before seeing my Larry, but I did not see that as productive in any way, that day.

 

[rockhopper46038]

I would think that production of an LTCH should end any further activity by the officer which had been initiated under the auspices of "Oh noes, this citizen is carrying a gun, which is illegal under Indiana Code unless they possess a valid LTCH!".

If that was the RAS that initiated the contact, you should be free to go about your business. If your broken taillight initiated the contact then you're still going to have to contend with that, of course.

Disarming a citizen legally possessing a firearm for reasons of "officer safety" is something I can understand from the perspective of the officer, but while I understand it I don't agree with it, condone it, or think that it should be permitted or occur.

 

[Concerned Citizen]

If that was the RAS that initiated the contact, you should be free to go about your business. If your broken taillight initiated the contact then you're still going to have to contend with that, of course.

Disarming a citizen legally possessing a firearm for reasons of "officer safety" is something I can understand from the perspective of the officer, but while I understand it I don't agree with it, condone it, or think that it should be permitted or occur.

In my case, it wasn't. It was a moving violation (that I only got a warning for).

 

[Paul30]

Obviously not getting shot is a goal even when the officer is in the wrong. I have seen situations where a couple officers unload their guns into a person because they thought he was reaching for a weapon, turns out it was a wallet cause he knew they would want ID. The safest thing for the officers to do is to treat all suspects as armed and dangerous and they never have to wonder. If I were an officer, the last thing I would want is a person who has a gun somewhere in the vehicle, to have it in their hand where they could easily pull a few rounds off before you could react. The odds of something going bad is written all over the request to hand me your loaded weapon. I don't think they want you to pull the magazine and rack the slide in the vehicle. There really isn't a safe place to point it when you have officers around the vehicle and passengers in it. Don't want to hand it to him muzzle first, or muzzle pointing at me or my passengers. Don't want him to accidentally grab it by the trigger as he is manipulating it in his hand. As usual, safest place for it to stay is in it's holster, and I can't get that off while seated in a car. Even if the best of precautions are taken, it's just a bad idea on the officers part. Especially when conducting a stop for a traffic violation. I could see an armed and dangerous warrant situation but that isn't the case.

 

[actaeon277]

Are you asking what it would take to get me "all butt-hurt" over the situation? Yeah, a ND would have definitely done it. Actually, there was a confiscation of weapon on that interaction. My LTCH was expired by 32 days, and I didn't realize it. I had to go down to the city/county building to get it back. Even then, it also my understanding that it was 'officer discretion' on the confiscation.

The whole thing pissed me off, but not to the point of me seeking out Guy Relford to seek punitive damages.

Yes, I could have gotten in their faces and told them how much I thought they were idiots for their sloppy weapon handling, and how an even half-decent cop wouldn't have disarmed me before seeing my Larry, but I did not see that as productive in any way, that day.

I'm not suggesting "getting in their faces" on the side of the road.
And a lawyer may not always be necessary.

But they did POINT A LOADED WEAPON at you.
And they did take your weapon, without RAS. They can't just say, "officer safety". They have to be able to say something, you were making threats, you were belligerent, or stuff like that. And I'm sure it can be made up. But, with the advent of cameras around, an officer, or yourself, must be careful making up stuff, to then be shown different in court.

At the very least, I'd be asking their superiors why they don't know the law, how to unload a weapon, or the basic safety rules.

 

[firecadet613]

I was disarmed by IPD officer Howard. She refused to let me even get my LTCH out of my wallet until backup showed up to assist in the disarmament. At that point with 3 squad cars on the scene, I was "Hands on my head, feet spread", on the side of the road. A little surprised I wasn't placed in prone position at that point. The worst part was that when office White disarmed me, he "swept" all three of us with the barrel before jacking 2 rounds of my ammo onto the street, because he forgot to remove the magazine first.

Did they violate my rights? Maybe, maybe not. My understanding is they have a right to actually see your LTCH to make sure it is valid, and they have a right to disarm you until that fact is established, and/or the LEO/Citizen interaction is complete.

Could they have handled it better? Absolutely. Am I all "Butt-Hurt" about it? Nope.

Was this recent? I'd put a call into Guy...no way I'd stand for that. In my eyes, you are a law abiding citizen yet you were treated like a criminal.

 

[sheepdog]

Listen and follow the officer commands even if you don't agree. Feel free to complain after the fact but no one wants a situation to go bad for no reason.

 

[Dead Duck]

Listen and follow the officer commands even if you don't agree. Feel free to complain after the fact but no one wants a situation to go bad for no reason.

Are you saying that if a stranger is touching you in your naughty place and you don't agree with them, you shouldn't complain until they're done?

The situation IS bad the second it starts - You should be complaining the whole time and it should be on the record that it's not OK to be molested in such a way.




....I think I need an adult.

 

[sheepdog]

Sure complain during the incident, just don't do anything stupid.

 

[ATM]

Listen and follow the officer commands even if you don't agree. Feel free to complain after the fact but no one wants a situation to go bad for no reason.

There are still many commands I would not follow. If that causes the situation to go bad, it would not be for no reason.

How did this conversation turn into active resistance, getting in officers' faces or calling names?

If an officer commanded me to give them or otherwise handle my gun, I would politely refuse and not comply. They will have to take it from my holster themselves without my consent, or leave it where it is. There really is no other option for them on the matter at that point.

My right to be armed either remains intact or it is infringed, but I will not waive it - and certainly not for something as trivial as personal convenience.

 

[AA&E]

My.02 worth. Comply. And if warranted complain file suit later. This is a situation that has the potential to escalate to use of deadly force. He tries to physically disarm you, you resist or dont (but he says you do), and he shoots you. Even if he is wrong, you can't litigate your way out of the morgue. Pick your battles, this one requires a tactical retreat and reengaging once you have the appropriate backup... a lawyer.. a jury.. witnesses.. etc.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Are you saying that if a stranger is touching you in your naughty place and you don't agree with them, you shouldn't complain until they're done?

The situation IS bad the second it starts - You should be complaining the whole time and it should be on the record that it's not OK to be molested in such a way.




....I think I need an adult.

Ok, duck, show me on the dolly!

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Only been disarmed three times (Only?)

1. Pulled over for speeding. Officer took my gun to his car for 30 minutes to "run the numbers"

2. Pulled over for speeding. Hands on roof of car while he removed my gun/knife.

3. Did not have LTCH on my person. LEO had me raise arms while he removed my gun in the middle of a crowded Subway.

 

[Dead Duck]

Ok, duck, show me on the dolly!

How about an actual picture........Please make him stop!

 

[Disposable Heart]

So, goofiness aside, the officer has to specifically articulate what threat you pose to them before they can disarm you?

Let's run some scenarios: I'm driving my beat up Hyundai Sonata, no wheel covers, but all lights working, all safety features enabled, not messing on my phone, 40 in a 35, blue and red lights. I'm pulled over. After rolling down my window, putting the car in park and shutting it off, I get out my operator's license, registration and proof of insurance out, officer ambles up, takes documents, Speeding! blah, blah, blah. UH, OH! Here comes the inevitable question, It's a trap! Do you have a gun in the car? Yes, pistol in appendix position (but hands stay on wheel, no movements towards my beltline)

Sorry Son, I need to see it to (insert something here, run the numbers, officer safety, etc...)

If they don't articulate why the reason for disarming, such as "well, you match a robbery suspect" or "You look like a guy I shot down 15 years ago, plus I watched Dead Heat the other day, I don't trust you...", then can I refuse to offer my firearm based on 4th amendment? What if they demand I produce the weapon, or worst, demand I leave the vehicle so I can be disarmed? Why, I ask? Officer safety he replies, giving a gaze that could chill water.

What then? Ask for a supervisor? Agree, but on the provision and understanding that the officer is in violation of my rights?

These are more accurate questions than some being asked I would feel.

 

[Concerned Citizen]

The only thing I was "asked" was, "Do you have any weapons besides that knife?" When the answer was yes, I got nothing but commands; "hands on the wheel" "No, I don't want to see your LTCH until my backup arrives". "Hands on your head, step slowly from the vehicle". "Do not make any moves while officer White removes your weapon."

She didn't ask permission for anything. At that point it was very clear to me that my not giving them permission, or protesting was not going to get me anywhere I wanted to be. I know some very good local cops & sheriffs, but that crew put a bad light on IPD that day. (and keep in mind, I was driving a full-wrapped Excursion, wearing slacks & Polo shirt with company logo, definitely not looking like the "suspected criminal element type").

However, no matter how many of you think I should contact Guy R and sue them, it's not going to happen. I hate most lawyers (Guy, Kirk, and my lawyer, Jeff Jinks, are the exceptions), and I hate lawsuits even more.

 

[actaeon277]

You don't have to sue. You can file a complaint.

 

[eachitandi]

The way I see it there are 2 options if the leo wishes to disarm you

1) comply under protest and deal with it later
2) refuse, in which case they will most likely forcibly disarm you

I chose option 1 thank you...

 

[Hornett]

I am VERY concerned about option 3.
The officer tells you to hand over your gun.
While you are reaching for it, he gets edgy and shoots you.
Or his partner, who didn't hear what he told you to do, shoots you.
EVERY SINGLE WITNESS will say you were reaching for a gun.

I agree with ATM wholeheartedly.
It's in the best interest of everyone, if the officer is intent on taking my gun, he will have to take it himself.
No struggle or anything like that, but I will not be reaching for my gun during a police encounter.
EDIT: And it's almost a guarantee that you will be swept with your own gun during this illegal act.

The only thing I was "asked" was, "Do you have any weapons besides that knife?" When the answer was yes...

You are under no obligation to answer that question.
I would have simply stated, 'There is nothing illegal in my car officer."
I have my LTCH clipped to my visor, so it is very easy for me to get to it.
Maybe starting that way I could show her my LTCH if the situation called for it.

That being said, OP, you don't have much choice but to follow the commands.
That officer was out of line and she will do it to everyone else until someone finally does something.
You have got to at least file a complaint.