Best residential HVAC setup

[ChristianPatriot]

+3 on building envelope first. We are 2 years into our Insulated Concrete Form (ICF) home. 2 story on a basement with an attached garage. 2400 sq ft living space, over 1200 sqft [mostly] unfinished, unheated basement. We choose zoned radiant floor heat (including the garage) with a forced air air conditioning. We were on the fence between this & using a mini-split for ac, but choose forced for air circulation/filtration.

All radiant floor heat components are drinking water certified, so we are able to use an "open loop" setup where the floor heat & domestic hot water are sourced from the same high efficiency water heater (Westinghouse 80 gallon, 97% efficiency 25 kbtu - 76 kbtu). I have plans to install a wood burning stove in the garage with a hot water loop to preheat water to the hot water heater. We originally intended to put the wood burner in the basement, but after 2 years of living here, I think that even the smallest wood stove down there would run us out of the house. The basement stays a consistent 65 degrees even without heat.

ICF homes are by design tight 12" thick wall sandwich (3" polystyrene form, 6" steel reinforced concrete, 3" polystyrene) that are tight due to the monolithic concrete pour. When factoring in little air movement through the walls, I have heard wall r-value ratings as high as R-65. Radiant floor heat provides consistent heat where you want it - at your feet. The second floor of our home is where all of the bedrooms are & we keep it set @ 65. A little cool when going to bed, but at least 3 of the 6 generally wake up in the middle of the night sweating because of the nature of the heat.

We have a family of 6, use LP gas for everything except our stove (water heater, dryer, cooktop, gas grill) and our average LP usage is around 900 gallons (2 fills/year). I installed the radiant heat system (hot water heater, pumps, controls, etc), my builder installed the radiant floor heat tubes; if I recall correctly, total HVAC cost (radiant system plus AC) was around $25,000.

Wow. I’m sure it’s awesome but, man, $25k!?

 

[PaulF]

Well......no knock but why Lennox...??

During my research I got really conflicting information from knowledgable sources. I called several "big-name" heating and air contractors for estimates, and a co-worker knows the owner of one of the biggest HVAC companies in town, so his quote was supposed to be super-duper awesome.

Well, two of the Big Name HVAC companies gave me quotes and told me to specifically avoid [REDACTED BRAND] due to reliability and repair costs, and the "personal friend" of my co-worker quoted me [REDACTED BRAND] at no discount from his competitors selling (supposedly) higher-quality equipment. That's kind of been my experience with the whole thing...I get what sounds like good advice from one source, then the next trusted source looks at me like I'm stupid for ever considering it.

At the end of the day I had to go with my gut. My mom has a Lennox system in her house, so does my aunt. My cousin's husband is an HVAC foreman, but he does commercial. He put a Lennox system in their house a couple of years ago. I had five companies come out to the house and give me quotes. Two of the guys really impressed me with their knowledge and their professionalism, and they each included Lennox in their High-End and Mid-High quotes. I had worked with one of those companies in the past with an emergency plumbing issue, and I had a really good experience. When it came time to spend the money I chose them.

Hopefully I didn't screw up too badly. (I'm sure INGO will be quick to tell me if I did, lol).

 

[alabasterjar]

Wow. I’m sure it’s awesome but, man, $25k!?

Yikes! That's what I get when I don't check my numbers...Radiant system was $8,000 (that includes the hot water heater), central AC was around $10,000 installed (may have been lower, that was my allowance in the contract with our builder). Radiant floor heat plus central AC definitely has a higher first cost then combined forced air heat/AC, but the system is very efficient, allows us to add other heat source loops (wood stove, solar) and we LOVE the even heat in the winter...

 

[Jaybird1980]

My garage/woodshop uses a 1984 Lennox furnace for heating. That furnace has been a champ, and all I've had to do is to give a a once-over cleaning yearly, and a couple of deeper cleanings over the years.

Coincidentally, that furnace quit a month ago or so, and with the help of Youtube and my volt/ohm meter, I was able to pinpoint my problem (albeit tentatively) as the combination fan control/limit switch. I was able to find a new one for a little over $100 at Supplyhouse.com, and I felt 10-feet tall when I set the control to match the old one, installed it, and it worked great.

As an old friend used to say, "Being Irish, I have lots of luck, unfortunately, it's not all good luck." And my feelings of accomplishment were short-lived when the house furnace crapped out, with all the classic signs of a failed heat exchanger (again per Youtube).

Heat exchangers are usually replaceable, they are usually pretty inexpensive compared to a furnace replacement. I would look into how and why it failed, as that could be indication of a sizing problem.

 

[churchmouse]

Heat exchangers are usually replaceable, they are usually pretty inexpensive compared to a furnace replacement. I would look into how and why it failed, as that could be indication of a sizing problem.

Or an indication of tuning. I have found so many units firing above 3.5"s WC at the burners.

Did he not say the unit was 20+ years old.......I think it is OK to say he got the full run out of it.

Edit....yup, 21 years old. No way I would spend a dime on this old piece. Let it go in peace.

 

[DocIndy]

With our new place, a addition will be going on in the next two years. When that happens, either a geo system will be going in or a 95% furnace on LP and a 18 SEER Bosch inverter heat pump. These have become my go to for a high efficiency HP. No proprietary controls and not stupid expensive compared to 14 SEER units. Simple install and as long as the indoor coil has a TXV no issues with a dual fuel setup.

 

[churchmouse]

With our new place, a addition will be going on in the next two years. When that happens, either a geo system will be going in or a 95% furnace on LP and a 18 SEER Bosch inverter heat pump. These have become my go to for a high efficiency HP. No proprietary controls and not stupid expensive compared to 14 SEER units. Simple install and as long as the indoor coil has a TXV no issues with a dual fuel setup.

I have heard rumblings about these. Longevity....????

 

[DocIndy]

So far no issues other than a damaged suction service valve on delivery. 10 year warranty out of the box with no need for registration. Compressor (Mitsubishi) unloads down to 20% capacity based on suction pressure and temp. Stupid quiet. There are a couple distributors in Indy. They come in 2 sizes 2/3 ton or 4/5 ton and you set the capacity on the control board. Bosch does require a surge protector mounted on the disconnect which most supply houses have on the shelf and run @$60. Its a pretty slick unit for the wholesale price point. I use Honeywell 8000 series touch screen and a outdoor temp sensor to control a dual fuel application. Lets face it, heat pumps are not cheap to begin with and this lets you offer 18 SEER efficiency without the $10k system price tag AirTron, Williams and Dial One like to toss around like its nothing.

 

[churchmouse]

So far no issues other than a damaged suction service valve on delivery. 10 year warranty out of the box with no need for registration. Compressor (Mitsubishi) unloads down to 20% capacity based on suction pressure and temp. Stupid quiet. There are a couple distributors in Indy. They come in 2 sizes 2/3 ton or 4/5 ton and you set the capacity on the control board. Bosch does require a surge protector mounted on the disconnect which most supply houses have on the shelf and run @$60. Its a pretty slick unit for the wholesale price point. I use Honeywell 8000 series touch screen and a outdoor temp sensor to control a dual fuel application. Lets face it, heat pumps are not cheap to begin with and this lets you offer 18 SEER efficiency without the $10k system price tag AirTron, Williams and Dial One like to toss around like its nothing.

Interesting.
I have a new 8000 on the bench I did not use on a project. I may have to do one of these just to use that damned overpriced stat.....

 

[churchmouse]

During my research I got really conflicting information from knowledgable sources. I called several "big-name" heating and air contractors for estimates, and a co-worker knows the owner of one of the biggest HVAC companies in town, so his quote was supposed to be super-duper awesome.

Well, two of the Big Name HVAC companies gave me quotes and told me to specifically avoid [REDACTED BRAND] due to reliability and repair costs, and the "personal friend" of my co-worker quoted me [REDACTED BRAND] at no discount from his competitors selling (supposedly) higher-quality equipment. That's kind of been my experience with the whole thing...I get what sounds like good advice from one source, then the next trusted source looks at me like I'm stupid for ever considering it.

At the end of the day I had to go with my gut. My mom has a Lennox system in her house, so does my aunt. My cousin's husband is an HVAC foreman, but he does commercial. He put a Lennox system in their house a couple of years ago. I had five companies come out to the house and give me quotes. Two of the guys really impressed me with their knowledge and their professionalism, and they each included Lennox in their High-End and Mid-High quotes. I had worked with one of those companies in the past with an emergency plumbing issue, and I had a really good experience. When it came time to spend the money I chose them.

Hopefully I didn't screw up too badly. (I'm sure INGO will be quick to tell me if I did, lol).

Lennox is a proprietary brand meaning many of the parts and info can only be had by or through a Lennox dealer. They are no better or worse than anything out there. I am no fan due to pricing and availability of common parts.
What you get when talking to X-Y or Z company is a push for what they get the bet margin on. If your gut told you ro go that direction then something must have felt right. You will most likely have good results.

 

[Mark-DuCo]

+3 on building envelope first. We are 2 years into our Insulated Concrete Form (ICF) home. 2 story on a basement with an attached garage. 2400 sq ft living space, over 1200 sqft [mostly] unfinished, unheated basement. We choose zoned radiant floor heat (including the garage) with a forced air air conditioning. We were on the fence between this & using a mini-split for ac, but choose forced for air circulation/filtration.

All radiant floor heat components are drinking water certified, so we are able to use an "open loop" setup where the floor heat & domestic hot water are sourced from the same high efficiency water heater (Westinghouse 80 gallon, 97% efficiency 25 kbtu - 76 kbtu). I have plans to install a wood burning stove in the garage with a hot water loop to preheat water to the hot water heater. We originally intended to put the wood burner in the basement, but after 2 years of living here, I think that even the smallest wood stove down there would run us out of the house. The basement stays a consistent 65 degrees even without heat.

ICF homes are by design tight 12" thick wall sandwich (3" polystyrene form, 6" steel reinforced concrete, 3" polystyrene) that are tight due to the monolithic concrete pour. When factoring in little air movement through the walls, I have heard wall r-value ratings as high as R-65. Radiant floor heat provides consistent heat where you want it - at your feet. The second floor of our home is where all of the bedrooms are & we keep it set @ 65. A little cool when going to bed, but at least 3 of the 6 generally wake up in the middle of the night sweating because of the nature of the heat.

We have a family of 6, use LP gas for everything except our stove (water heater, dryer, cooktop, gas grill) and our average LP usage is around 900 gallons (2 fills/year). I installed the radiant heat system (hot water heater, pumps, controls, etc), my builder installed the radiant floor heat tubes; if I recall correctly, total HVAC cost (radiant system plus AC) was around $25,000.

+4, I'm getting close to finishing up my house and I went all out on insulation, and it shows already. I have 2 small 1500 watt heaters on low and when i stopped in before work this morning it was still 60 degrees in my house which is around 1800 sqft living area.

My HVAC guy/uncle is putting in a Goodman gas furnace and air conditioning unit. I don't know much about them, but he said he went half a ton smaller than what a normal house my size calls for because of the insulation.

 

[churchmouse]

+4, I'm getting close to finishing up my house and I went all out on insulation, and it shows already. I have 2 small 1500 watt heaters on low and when i stopped in before work this morning it was still 60 degrees in my house which is around 1800 sqft living area.

My HVAC guy/uncle had me put in Goodman gas furnace and air conditioning unit. I don't know much about them, but he said he went half a ton smaller than what a normal house my size calls for because of the insulation.

I used to use Goodman. There are still a lot of them out there running after 20+ years of service. The one I took out last fall was 22 years old and still running.
I am no fan of the new stuff they are putting out.
Hope you have years of good service from it.

 

[Mark-DuCo]

I used to use Goodman. There are still a lot of them out there running after 20+ years of service. The one I took out last fall was 22 years old and still running.
I am no fan of the new stuff they are putting out.
Hope you have years of good service from it.

He says that he has the best luck with them the last 5 years or so.

Also to the OP be sure to check for rebates. I should be getting around a $600 rebate from my gas company for my water heater and furnace.

 

[churchmouse]

He says that he has the best luck with them the last 5 years or so.

Also to the OP be sure to check for rebates. I should be getting around a $600 rebate from my gas company for my water heater and furnace.

I have had solid luck with Carrier but I am getting tired of the constant rice increases.

 

[Ricnzak]

We have a Trane unit that’s 19 years old now and has very minimal repairs over the years. I’d put them on my list to compare if I was building.

I’m really leary of geo therm systems. My dad has one that has been nothing but problems. I’m sure that goes back to the original company but still left a bad taste.

 

[JettaKnight]

This should be similar to a 1911 vs Glock and .45 vs .40 vs 9mm thread...

We are considering building a new house with some acreage in a few more years once we are done paying for diapers and preschool. What is the best residential HVAC setup with ROI as a consideration?

First make sure the envelop is correct: 6" exterior walls minimum, or better yet, ICF.

 

[BoilerWes]

With our new place, a addition will be going on in the next two years. When that happens, either a geo system will be going in or a 95% furnace on LP and a 18 SEER Bosch inverter heat pump. These have become my go to for a high efficiency HP. No proprietary controls and not stupid expensive compared to 14 SEER units. Simple install and as long as the indoor coil has a TXV no issues with a dual fuel setup.

We just had a very similar system installed on Friday. Furnace is two stage. So far so good.

 

[2Lucky]

You also want to consider how long you plan to live in your present house........

 

[churchmouse]

You also want to consider how long you plan to live in your present house........

In this consider re-sale. Having a proper system in place makes for less hassles when marketing your home.

 

[mikebol]

Sorry for reviving an old thread...

CM, we're building a home in Trafalgar this summer and I'm doing some HVAC research to figure out what we go with. I've been leaning toward a hybrid system with a heatpump and LP gas backup. But after reading your comments about problems, I'm considering just going with a high efficiency LP gas system and calling it done. With this being new construction, I spend more on insulation and less on the HVAC unit with a simpler unit likely being easier for me to work on anyway.

Any additional guidance on what to look for in a hybrid unit if I do decide to go that way? The setup DocIndy mentioned sounds interesting as well.

Just curious if you had any update on the topic.

Mike

EDIT: This will be our last home, no more kids and just the wife and I.