Bill of Sale template

[ATM]

So, you guys are of the belief that some guy using a gun I sold him a year ago to shoot someone last night is going to be deemed a worthy undertaking for the ATF? ...

I'm pretty sure they just run the trace from manufacturer to dealer for the local police when requested. Locals probably take it from there.

Doubtful the ATF would become involved in any normal crime investigation beyond that.

 

[Hoosierbuck]

I'm pretty sure they just run the trace from manufacturer to dealer for the local police when requested. Locals probably take it from there.

Doubtful the ATF would become involved in any normal crime investigation beyond that.

Bingo, except the ATF will trace all the way to the buyer. Seen it happen many times just like that.
HB

 

[Newg]

Anyone with a scanner, a ream of pink paper, MS Paint, and 15 minutes on their hands can create the LTCH for the number of people they could fill in data for in 15 minutes. Add a laminating machine and they look like what everyone that does it right carries. Just because someone has a pink piece of paper doesn't mean they're good to go.

And if someone does do this and passes it off to a seller as the real deal, it's not the sellers problem. If they ask to see a LTCH, they've already done more than their due diligence by asking for it in the first place. They aren't required by law to ask to see the buyers government issued piece of pink paper. A bill of sale isn't going to protect you any more or less than asking for a LTCH will. One can pump out a BoS signed by a "buyer" just as easily as someone can make a LTCH. Probably easier. White paper is more readily available.

Easy answer, 4473. If the ATF can get the serial number, the manufacturer tells them who they shipped it to, the store that received it tells them who they sold it to, your phone/doorbell rings. Simple as that.

If they can get the serial number of a firearm it will be traced to the original owner, usually very fast. Ask any FFL. I just had this conversation with an ATF agent in my house the other day.

**Hoosierbuck** and I were typing at the same time...

I can vouch that this is exactly how it will go. I had a somewhat similar situation. I bought a used pistol from a pawn shop several years ago. Pawn shops, just like gun shops, have to do 4473's. I got a call from the local PD a few months after purchase asking about the gun and notifying me that they thought it may have been used in a murder by the neighbor of the previous owner. The previous owner told them the pawn shop he sold it to. The PD went to the pawn shop and asked for the 4473 on that gun. They got my info off of it and called me. A super nice officer asked if they could borrow it to do ballistics tests on it. Like an idiot I voluntarily let them take it. As it turns out it wasn't the gun. I played HELL getting my gun back from the PD. The previously "super nice officer" wouldn't even return my calls. I finally had to get a family member who new some folks at the department to get involved to get back my gun that wasn't used in a crime, and that I voluntarily loaned to them. When I finally did get it back it was covered in evidence tape! So, while we don't have an official registration system in this country, we do have an unofficial one. Manufacturers are required to keep track of who they sold the gun to. Then dealer's are required to keep the 4473's for some time. I've heard everything from 20 years to forever. I honestly don't know how long it is.

So, you guys are of the belief that some guy using a gun I sold him a year ago to shoot someone last night is going to be deemed a worthy undertaking for the ATF? It's simply not going to happen, and if you could find a citation showing where it happened I would be shocked. The ATF is not going to make a local murder a federal case. Yes, perhaps if you shoot an elected official or something, but federal warrants don't come easy, and they don't come cheap.

ATF is not the only agency permitted access to this info. You're right, they aren't going to get involved in a local crime. But local law enforcement doesn't need them to get involved in order to gain access to the files.

So to summarize:
1. I don't think a BoS is going to do anything to protect you. Just like your LTCH it is a chintzy piece of paper. Furthermore, do you really believe if my intent was to use it in a crime that I would put legit info on it?

2. They can, and will, trace a gun that you bought from a dealer back to you if they suspect it's been involved in a crime

3. I don't buy guns from dealers anymore and I don't put info on BoS's. I have never been arrested for any crime nor do I have any intent of committing a crime. However, I do value my privacy and don't like to involve paper trails in the purchase or sale of firearms. It makes me feel as if it is being assumed that I will be committing a crime and therefore paperwork about me should be kept in order to make it easier to find me after I do. I follow the law only to the extent that I'm required to. No more, no less.

4. I probably don't need to say this to most of you. But I used to be a lot more naive than I am know and there may be some similar people on these boards. So, I'll say it anyway. NEVER, and I mean EVER, voluntarily turn over your property to law enforcement. Do not be an a-hole. Do not try to be helpful. Just follow the law. Kindly ask them to file the appropriate forms and get the paperwork that allows them to seize your property. Don't give them anything until this has been done!

 

[Glock19]

 

[mkelsey]

If someone handed me one of those forms at an FTF buy/sell I would just pack up and leave. The farthest I am willing to go for a reciept is a date and a signature/printed name(once you start asking for personal info and DL/LTCH #'s I am out). I have no problem showing proof of residence and LTCH but if you think someone is going to commit a crime once they have "your" gun then YOU SHOULD NOT BE SELLING THEM A GUN.

 

[hacksawfg]

Question for the group. Never filled a form out for FTF, but if the owner of a firearm for sale had the paperwork for the original purchase, what would happen if the owner took your cash and reported the gun stolen? He would be the only person with physical proof of ownership? How would you prove a transfer actually took place?

 

[ATM]

...How would you prove a transfer actually took place?

I don't have to. It must be proven that I stole it.

The one making the false claim must be willing to face the consequences if they don't frame you beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[mr.steve]

I didn't bail on you folks. As the OP, I was ignorant of the details of FTF sales. A BOS seemed the right thing to do. I have learned now the etiquette For a gun sale is simply respect and common sense. A visual I.D. check, respect the buyers right to privacy and record the transaction just like you would for a bicycle or a lawn mower sale. Being a newbie is stressful. at least the learning curve isn't very steep.

 

[Glock19]

Question for the group. Never filled a form out for FTF, but if the owner of a firearm for sale had the paperwork for the original purchase, what would happen if the owner took your cash and reported the gun stolen? He would be the only person with physical proof of ownership? How would you prove a transfer actually took place?

Well I usually have more than a few emails and texts saying where we are meeting and what both of us are driving, and one of us usually texts the other saying they are there waiting. And the terms of the deal are usually texted or emailed first before I will meet you.

 

[chizzle]

Thanks to the OP for creating this thread! It's really helpful.

 

[MacEoghan]

Then again if my previously owned firearm were to be used in a crime I would be damn glad I had this form filled out and filed if someone came knocking on my door looking for answers.

That is exactly why I would want one if I were selling or buying. Maybe I'm a bit paranoid, but better to be safe than sorry. I wouldn't want all the personal info on there, but info on the gun and signatures, absolutely.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Sold a rifle to another member last week. He tried to show me his ID and LTCH, I told him to put it up. I had already asked him if he was a resident and a proper person, he said yes to both and I had no reason to doubt him. If he goes off and kills someone with said rifle it is on him, not me.

 

[LarryC]

Are you saying that you are willing to kick in some cash for my legal bills when I get shanghaied by the BATFE in a set-up? Thanks!!!

What makes you think your at risk? There is absolutely no law or even a suggestion from ATF or Indiana that you are required to acquire ANY information from a buyer. The only thing I require on non-"curio or relic" firearms is an Indiana Drivers license. That insures the purchasers age and residency. As long as you don't have "reasonable doubt" that a person is not able to legally possess a firearm you have met all the requirements of all the laws on the books. The only time I have to take a persons Name and address, or FFL license number is if I am buying or selling a "curio or relic" firearm - this is because I am required to enter the information in my "Bound Book" as an FFL-03 licensee.

Do you require information when you sell a person a hammer or knife? Both can be lethal, a firearm is just a tool like them. I firmly believe the government has enough restrictions on firearms (though none have proved to be any deterrent to criminals and just cause the law abiding citizen extra costs and problems) that I or no other citizen should add any more.

 

[Expat]

This is why we need gun registration, so that we can legally track where all the guns are.

 

[SERparacord]

This is why we need gun registration, so that we can legally track where all the guns are.

At every waning moment, microchips!!!!

 

[sepe]

At every waning moment, microchips!!!!

I called a few places today trying to figure out where they do the Government Issue microchip implants (also looking to see where they do the thought monitoring microchips) but everyone acted like I was nuts. Oh well, tomorrow is a new day...I'll keep trying.

 

[nebulous]

I think selling a gun listed on INGO is enough electronic trail for me. If I sold one at random to someone at a gun show, I would feel more comfortable with a bill of sale for a paper trail.

 

[LarryC]

In the real world, no piece of paper is going to be a magic get out of jail free card, but your assertion is absurd. With a purported bill of sale, you at least can give the police another tree to bark up. With the fact that you once owned the gun being the only evidentiary tie to the crime and a bill of sale, the police will move on with the investigation.


You needn't be so sarcastic. Have you ever purchased a gun from a dealer, then eventually sold it to a private person? (A show of hands? Everybody? Great.)
If that gun turns up as part of a crime, it will be traced from the manufacturer to the distributor to the dealer...to you! Wouldn't you rather be able to show the police a scrap of paper that gives them the next lead in their investigation as opposed to being the end of the line, and having to be cleared by a thorough investigation?

Do what you want, but I use a simple BOS that has your name on it, and I'll see your ID/LTCH or we won't deal. My choice to require it, your choice to comply, no problem.

HB

I have been buying (and sold a few) firearms for over 50 years. As far as your statement that if you purchase a firearm from a dealer it will be immediately traced to you is somewhat erroneous.

Yes the manufacturer is required to track all firearm sales to their distributor. Yes the distributor is required to track the sale of their firearms to an FFL - and the first sale of that firearm (NEW) is recorded on a 4473. So far you are correct. BUT if the gun is sold to the (traceable) individual and he resells it (even to another dealer) the record chain is broken. Yes it is recorded on the dealers books - but not to the Government - but what dealer? Or if it is sold to a second individual there is no record. Even if it was sold new to you and you resold it you are in no way expected to record or check the background of the buyer - only to NOT SELL to anyone "YOU KNOW OR HAVE REASONABLE DOUBT" is not legal to possess a firearm.

As I have stated before a firearm is just a tool - you are not responsible for the use of the tool as long as you followed the law stated above. As I stated in other posts, I have NEVER saw a case where a person was prosecuted for selling a firearm used in a crime UNLESS the person selling it was a felon (illegal for him to even own), he KNEW the person buying it was not legal to possess a firearm, he KNEW the person was going to use it in a crime, or he bought the firearm to sell to a person wanting it to use in a crime (straw purchase).

 

[DGansert]

I sold a hand gun to a coworker, he turned around and sold it to a member of law enforcement. Do I need to worry, I don't think I do.

 

[mugable]

I was looking for something like this but I think the links OP provided are a bit overkill for my needs.
I'm selling one of my handguns to a co-worker I've known for quite some time.
I think something a little more simple will handle my needs. I trust the guy.
I can see how someone would want something more thorough when dealing with a stranger but in my opinion there's definitely a limit on what type of information you should expect a stranger to be willing to divulge.