bill of sale

[Alpo]

Anyone have a form or document already made up for this that would suffice for FTF sales so i have proof its no longer my firearm, but tailored to indiana's laws, IE information that can be collected to prove "Proper Person"? i'm not so untrusting that i want to request an ffl do all my transfers, but i want a solid "something" to cover my ass, knowwhatimean?

If you need something solid, then you should take it to an FFL to complete the transaction. Your buyer may not want to do that, irrespective of the "properness" of his person.

There are no guarantees in life. If your gut says it's not a good thing, don't do it.

 

[IndianaSoloMcfly]

Just to make me feel better, I like to see drivers license and ccw. I won't sell to someone if they are at all "iffy". Just my preference.

If we do a deal, seeing my ccw means something went very wrong. Now my LTCH is a different story

 

[Tanfodude]

You don't have to & can't really "prove" proper person unless you are doing a transfer via an FFL. The law requires you have no knowledge that they are NOT a proper person, if I recall correctly.

A Bill of Sale may make you feel better about things, but it really isn't proof of much in reality.

Most folks are not going to be too interested in you recording and keeping any of their identification details.

If it makes you feel better, something signed and dated with the serial number and some pertinent facts regarding the firearm involved in the transaction would be pertinent.

Also, you will want to mention in any ad that you want a bill of sale for both parties and what type of info you are looking for, so that everyone knows what is being requested up front.

Even if there are no laws, it's still prohibited to sell to a prohibited person right? The burden of proof is on the buyer and the risk is on the seller. If the buyer can't prove he/she's a proper person, I wouldn't sell the firearm.

 

[Jeepster48439]

I'm just a private citizen. Unless something comes to light about legal requirements that are new, I'm operating under the standard of not knowingly selling to a nonresident or felon.

LTCH and DL serves those requirements, if I feel the need to verify, which isn't legally required, IIRC.

I don't belive there is any requirement for a private sale to ever include logging people's information.

Please specify with links to the code, if I am mistaken. Thanks.

I wasn't saying that there is any law requiring any level of verification or recordation for a private sale. My post was "do what you feel is necessary for you to be comfortable completing the sale".

 

[WebSnyper]

Even if there are no laws, it's still prohibited to sell to a prohibited person right? The burden of proof is on the buyer and the risk is on the seller. If the buyer can't prove he/she's a proper person, I wouldn't sell the firearm.

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whom-may-unlicensed-person-transfer-firearms-under-gca

A person may transfer a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her State, provided the transferor does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the transferee is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. There may be State laws that regulate intrastate firearm transactions. A person considering transferring a firearm should contact his or her State Attorney General’s Office to inquire about the laws and possible State or local restrictions.

Also, how are you having them prove they are a proper person? FFL Transfer? If not, how is it being proven that they are not in fact a prohibited person at the time of the transaction?

 

[Hawkeye7br]

Let's reverse the question. As a seller, do you offer a signed statement the gun you're selling isn't stolen? And offer the paper trail of all the previous owners? Because if I trade the gun to a dealer and it's been stolen.....you're not gonna hang that one on me.

Just make your own record that tells name of buyer, date of sale, his phone number.

 

[bwframe]

It's difficult to believe that in the modern day there is not an easy way to verify stolen/not stolen gun serial numbers online.

My alternative is to not worry much about it, combined with trading with folks I "know" from vetting their activity on this site.

 

[rkwhyte2]

OP with all due respect you are overthinking this. So long as you believe the buyer is a proper person then you are good to go. A proper person would be a resident of the state who is old enough to purchase what you are selling.

 

[WebSnyper]

It's difficult to believe that in the modern day there is not an easy way to verify stolen/not stolen gun serial numbers online.

Well that would require centralized tracking by likely some govt agency and I'm not sure that is something I'd be interested in honestly.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Well that would require centralized tracking by likely some govt agency and I'm not sure that is something I'd be interested in honestly.

Yes and no. All that would need to be included in such a database are the serial numbers of guns that have been reported as stolen. In fact, isn't there a website that already has this information? Hotgunz.com or some such? I probably have the name wrong, but I seem to remember reading about it here on INGO. I agree that a more comprehensive database containing all serial numbers (via an all-out registration) would be a bad idea though.

 

[IndyTom]

I had a buyer last night ask to do a bill of sale. First time that has happened. I looked over what he had created and I had no qualms with it.

it literally said “I (my name) sold (his name) a (insert gun).” No serial number, no signatures. It was more like a statement of fact than a bill of sale.

I think that was more for the wife's benefit. What you didn't see was him writing down "for $X" where X was quite a bit less than he actually paid you. You didn't even get the $5 BS Bill Of Sale fee.

 

[JettaKnight]

It's difficult to believe that in the modern day there is not an easy way to verify stolen/not stolen gun serial numbers online.

My alternative is to not worry much about it, combined with trading with folks I "know" from vetting their activity on this site.

IKR? Of course, any such database would likely be decried as a prelude to gun grabbing.

Even if there are no laws, it's still prohibited to sell to a prohibited person right? The burden of proof is on the buyer and the risk is on the seller. If the buyer can't prove he/she's a proper person, I wouldn't sell the firearm.

Wrong and wrong.


What would "prove" to you that I'm a proper person? That pink card that's been in my wallet for a decade and has an old address on it?

 

[STEEL CORE]

Joe Hoosier once had an Indiana LTCH, and then got in trouble with Johnny Law, his LTCH was revoked by the State Police, but he has a current valid Indiana Drivers License, and a COPY of that revoked LTCH, he shows them to you and buys your peashooter.
He is wrong, but how will you know?

 

[bwframe]

Joe Hoosier once had an Indiana LTCH, and then got in trouble with Johnny Law, his LTCH was revoked by the State Police, but he has a current valid Indiana Drivers License, and a COPY of that revoked LTCH, he shows them to you and buys your peashooter.
He is wrong, but how will you know?

As private citizens, I don't believe it's our legal requirement to background check who we sell to.

Different story if we sell to the known neighborhood or family felon.

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[JettaKnight]

As private citizens, I don't believe it's our legal requirement to background check who we sell to.

Different story if we sell to the known neighborhood or family felon.

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

You speak the truth.




So, OP, what'd you decide?

 

[Tanfodude]

Wrong and wrong.
What would "prove" to you that I'm a proper person? That pink card that's been in my wallet for a decade and has an old address on it?

So, it's is ok selling to an unknown prohibited person is what you're saying? Private sellers just hopes that person is not a felon? Is this the loophole the anti's are talking about?

Also, if that is the case, why would a private seller risk that? Just because there's no law about it, the seller just sells it hoping the buyer isn't a felon?

 

[Bapak2ja]

I always ask for a bill of sale, whether I am selling or buying, and I make this know when we try to set up a meet. If it is a problem, the transaction ends at that point. Without BOS, someone who sold me a firearm could report it as stolen and I would have no proof that I bought it. For that matter, without such a document I could sell a firearm and then report it as stolen, too—claiming the guy took off without paying me.

I record the date, the gun model and make, and its serial number. I also want the other person's name and signature. I provide the same data. With this I have some proof that there was a sale. It protects me in case the gun was stolen, even if the seller unknowingly bought a stolen gun. At the same time I verify that the name is the same as on the buyer's pink slip. I give one copy to the other person and keep one for my self. If a person won't provide his name and signature I am not interested in doing business with him. Too much at risk.

It is not perfect, but it does provide some documentation that I made a good faith effort to abide by the law and that I did not steal that gun.

 

[WebSnyper]

So, it's is ok selling to an unknown prohibited person is what you're saying? Private sellers just hopes that person is not a felon? Is this the loophole the anti's are talking about?

Also, if that is the case, why would a private seller risk that? Just because there's no law about it, the seller just sells it hoping the buyer isn't a felon?

To which I ask again, what are you proposing as an answer? Unless you have an FFL do a transfer including the requisite background check, I don't see how you are possibly going to "prove" that the buyer is a proper person at the time of the transaction... so, what is your solution? We have stated what the law is... nothing more, nothing less. Your statements/questions don't seem to have much to do with the bill of sale question.

 

[JettaKnight]

So, it's is ok selling to an unknown prohibited person is what you're saying?

In essence, yes. "unknown prohibited person" is the same thing as, "the seller has no reasonable knowledge that the buyer is prohibited."

Private sellers just hopes that person is not a felon? Is this the loophole the anti's are talking about?

More or less. I'm not saying not to conduct due diligence (e.g. are they driving with out-of-state plates, are acting weird, check the DL or LTCH), but there's no way to be absolutely certain without a background check.

Also, if that is the case, why would a private seller risk that? Just because there's no law about it, the seller just sells it hoping the buyer isn't a felon?

It happens all. the. glocking. time.

Have you sold a gun FTF? How did you ensure they absolutely were not prohibited?

 

[bwframe]

If one is overly worried about selling to inappropriate buyers, then by all means do what you need to feel you have best policed your sale. Selling through an FFL w/NCIS check should certainly cover all bases.

It'd be better for us all if we didn't talk our way into making this a legal requirement.