Birdshead grip for Mossberg 500/590--14" but non NFA?

[Revopop]

shockwavetechnologies.com » Parts for Mossberg 500 Shotguns

First of all, Speedfeed no longer makes a birdshead grip for Mossberg, so it's nice that there's one available again. Secondly, this manufacturer claims that since the OAL with this grip and a 14" barrel is 26.5", it's not considered an NFA item and has a couple ATF letters to back it up. In Iowa(where I'm originally from), they also say 18" barrel is required so it would be moot, but I'm not sure about that in Indiana. Of course in Iowa all NFA items are illegal so this whole section would be moot. I sure do like Indiana.

Anyway my question is, if one of those 14" 590 AOWs that have been around lately had one of these grips installed on it by a Class III dealer, would it no longer be considered an AOW and be saleable like any other non-NFA weapon? Of course, you'd have to make sure you never put a stock on it or it'd be an SBS.

 

[redpitbull44]

In Indiana, we can't have short barreled shotguns (under 18") yet. Everything else if fair game. We are working on SBS, and hunting with suppressors.

In order to buy a gun that fires shotgun shells with a barrel under 18", it needs to be built on a virgin receiver to be considered an AOW, which is a $5 tax stamp. Like the Serbu super shorty shotguns for example. It can't ever have been a shotgun that came from the manufacturer with a stock. At least that's the way I've always understood it. Not sure about the legality of shortening a Mossberg cruiser that came with just the pistol grip and 18.5" barrel, but I would guess that'd be an SBS, and not an AOW. Not for sure.

 

[Revopop]

You're misunderstanding my question. Mossberg makes shotguns that come from the factory with a pistol grip, so they've never had a shoulder stock and would be eligible for AOW'ing. It's not like an 870 where you'd need a hard to find virgin receiver. According to the above website, you can get a Mossberg 590 that's pistol gripped from the factory, order their pistol grip, and 8 parts (including 14" barrel) from Mossberg. As long as you install the pistol grip before the barrel, it'd essentially be like having a 14" 590 AOW without having to have any AOW paperwork. That sounds like it'd be faster than waiting for a stamp, but it'd cost a helluva lot more than $5.

 

[redpitbull44]

You're misunderstanding my question. Mossberg makes shotguns that come from the factory with a pistol grip, so they've never had a shoulder stock and would be eligible for AOW'ing. It's not like an 870 where you'd need a hard to find virgin receiver.

That's what I'm not sure about. LOL. I know I read a definitive answer somewhere... lemme search.

Ok, yeah. If you bought a JIC or cruiser that never had a stock, you could shorten it, turn it into an AOW no problems. But I'm pretty sure to make it yourself is $200, not $5.

 

[Revopop]

Right, but a dealer can make one for you without having to pay the $200, can't they?

Really, the meat of what I'm asking is can an AOW be reconfigured to non-NFA configuration and then bought and sold like a regular non-NFA firearm?

 

[redpitbull44]

Right, but a dealer can make one for you without having to pay the $200, can't they?

Really, the meat of what I'm asking is can an AOW be reconfigured to non-NFA configuration and then bought and sold like a regular non-NFA firearm?

I would think so, except there are the markings that designate it to be an NFA firearm. For example, engravings and such. I would think you would need to strike those markings out to do so.

But your original question, taking an AOW 12g and adding a different pistol grip, it is still an AOW 12g. Taking an AOW 12g and putting on anything the BATF considers a stock, it becomes an SBS. Putting a barrel on a shotgun that is less than the required length, it becomes an SBS. AFAIK, taking an AOW or SBS and putting an 18+" barrel and stock on at the same time, it is a shotgun, but then we are back to engravings again.

Clear as mud?

 

[Revopop]

Clear as mud indeed. Add to that that the ATF Tech Branch ruled that you can take an AOW, install a >18" barrel, then a full buttstock, and it's legal, then take the stock back off, reinstall the short barrel, reinstall the pistol grip, and it's an AOW again. Go figure.

The other thing is that by installing this particular pistol grip, you're making it essentially a non-NFA configuration, so it's not the same as, for example switching out a factory grip for a Hogue one.

Do AOWs have engravings?

 

[redpitbull44]

Clear as mud indeed. Add to that that the ATF Tech Branch ruled that you can take an AOW, install a >18" barrel, then a full buttstock, and it's legal, then take the stock back off, reinstall the short barrel, reinstall the pistol grip, and it's an AOW again. Go figure.

The other thing is that by installing this particular pistol grip, you're making it essentially a non-NFA configuration, so it's not the same as, for example switching out a factory grip for a Hogue one.

Do AOWs have engravings?

That I do not know. I am going to go find out.

 

[ryknoll3]

All NFA must be engraved by the maker. These markings don't "identify it as NFA" and wouldnt need to be struck. You could get the word "Machinegun" engraved on your AR but it doesn't make it a machinegun neither would it be illegal to do so. If you remove the features that make it an NFA weapon, it ceases to be NFA. The only exception is a machine gun receiver. This can never be made Not a machine gun, legally speaking.

 

[Car Ramrod]

From what I understand, per Indiana law, is a shotgun must maintain a minimum OAL and a minimum barrel length to be considered legal.

IC 35-47-1-10
"Sawed-off shotgun"
Sec. 10. "Sawed-off shotgun" means:
(1) a shotgun having one (1) or more barrels less than eighteen (18) inches in length; and
(2) any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

This means you can't make the stock longer to offset a shorter barrel, but you can make the barrel longer to allow a pistol grip (I believe most 18" bbls and pistol grips come in right at 26"). This also means you couldn't take a barrel less than 18" and use your birdshead grip as it would not be considered a shotgun, and would now be an AOW, according to Indiana Law. (FWIW Indiana considers a shotgun with a pistol grip to be a handgun, even though it meets the legal ATF definition of a shotgun. )

However, with your example having never been considered a "shotgun" by the ATF, it could possibly be considered a handgun (but probably still an AOW). Look up the "Mare's Leg".

IC 35-47-1-6
"Handgun"
Sec. 6. "Handgun" means any firearm:
(1) designed or adapted so as to be aimed and fired from one (1) hand, regardless of barrel length; or
(2) any firearm with:
(A) a barrel less than sixteen (16) inches in length; or
(B) an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

It gives no specification that a rifled bore is required. The only issue is that the ATF limits handguns to a bore of no larger than .50 caliber.

Other than that, IANAL.

 

[mms]

i think this is the most relevent for us here in indiana for why we cant do this with a 14" barrel

IC 35-47-1-10
"Sawed-off shotgun"
Sec. 10. "Sawed-off shotgun" means:
(1) a shotgun having one (1) or more barrels less than eighteen (18) inches in length; and
(2) any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

 

[neraph]

i think this is the most relevent for us here in indiana for why we cant do this with a 14" barrel

IC 35-47-1-10
"Sawed-off shotgun"
Sec. 10. "Sawed-off shotgun" means:
(1) a shotgun having one (1) or more barrels less than eighteen (18) inches in length; and
(2) any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

IANAL, but it seems that a shotgun that never had a stock attached is not legally a "shotgun" in Indiana, but a "handgun".

"Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

That is, it can't be a "sawed-off shotgun" because it is neither currently a shotgun nor a weapon made from a shotgun.

 

[Car Ramrod]

I read through the link you posted, and I still am not sure. He explains it here: shockwavetechnologies.com » The 14″ Mossberg 500 That ISN’T NFA!.

I want to say it would still be an AOW, but the ATF letter says a lot to the contrary.

 

[Revopop]

The problem is, how do you get a 14" Mossberg that's not NFA? It would almost have to be factory installed, and I doubt the factory would do it with as easy as it would be to make it SBS. According to the link, you can buy parts from Mossberg, but it would cost you more than getting a registered AOW. Plus my 590 is a Mariner, so it wouldn't match either.

 

[ctbreitwieser]

IANAL, but it seems that a shotgun that never had a stock attached is not legally a "shotgun" in Indiana, but a "handgun".

Thats what im getting from it. Im guessing it falls in the same category as a Judge. But then a Serbu is never intended to be shoulder fired either, so what make it fall under NFA? The front grip? And if this is for real, you should legally be able to put an even shorter barrel on it, since its legal to do with any other handgun... I think

 

[mms]

Thats what im getting from it. Im guessing it falls in the same category as a Judge. But then a Serbu is never intended to be shoulder fired either, so what make it fall under NFA? The front grip? And if this is for real, you should legally be able to put an even shorter barrel on it, since its legal to do with any other handgun... I think

2 things you are missing with they judge and why they cant be comapred to a serbu.

1. rifled bore
2. bore less than .50

niether of which this mosseberg would have

 

[Car Ramrod]

But then a Serbu is never intended to be shoulder fired either, so what make it fall under NFA?

The OAL and it's ability "to be concealed on a person."