Bloomington Police purchase of armored truck sparks debate

[Woobie]

I didn't read all the prior posts but in this day and age why would you want your police force "out gunned". If their vehicle is too old and not adequate then give them the tools they need for God's sake.

That's a silly question. Almost no one wants police to be outgunned. I say almost, I'm sure the criminals would love it. The point is whether the expense is justified. It's possible the new information coming out will shed new light on exactly how much this thing is needed. But in lieu of transparency from a government with its hand constantly held out, taxpayers do have the right to ask questions.

Let's put this in another light. Do you want dead soldiers? Why shouldn't our troops have the best and newest equipment? Do you want to be the person to write a dead soldier's mom and tell her that her son might still be alive if we had just spent more money?

That's so compelling. Yet, what happens when those excuses go unchecked? https://www.military.com/daily-news...n-buys-abrams-tanks-the-army-doesnt-want.html

Is it possible we're just setting money on fire? The congressman spends because his constituency likes defense spending, and he wants the campaign support from the defense industry. The citizen doesn't question the spending because he listens to Lee Greenwood on the way to work each morning. Meanwhile, everyone is going about bringing this country closer to financial ruin in the name of patriotism. It's perverse.

So to all this emotion I say "justify it." Questions should not be offensive to people who have answers.

 

[Woobie]

Is this a familiar case of "if we don't spend the money, we won't get the money?"

It could be. That's why I ask questions. It might be the single most important thing they could have purchased this decade. If that is true, it shouldn't be hard to justify. But given the propensity of government at every level to grab money, then use current expenses to justify those expenses in perpetuity, it falls to the unwashed masses to be critical. And how dare we?

 

[hpclayto]

So how many times does it have to be successfully used before you deem it worthy of the cost?

 

[Woobie]

So how many times does it have to be successfully used before you deem it worthy of the cost?

I thought about that, but I'm not sure that's the right question. If a department doesn't have one, they couldn't very well justify purchase based on past use. Similarly, a department that had used one 500 times 20 years ago might not actually need one due to a major shift in crime statistics. I think a better method would be to look at the number of recent incidents with people pinned down in a shootout with heavily armed criminals.

But I don't want to appear evasive, so if we accept the question, I'll answer it with a caveat. I think 1 legitimate use every 6 months would be a good justification. But I'm not talking bringing it out on a SWAT run. If you have one and use it for that, fine. But that doesn't justify the expense. Are Bloomington PD or citizens pinned down by gunfire on average twice a year, and in such a way that the only reasonable means of rescue would require an armored vehicle?

 

[nra4ever]

Its easy to answer the question. They already have a tach vehicle they are replacing. Just ask how many times in the past has that vehicle been used. The price of the replacement doesn't even seem unreasonable.

Because Bloomington is full of liberals alone justifies the need. You never know what those unwashed tree huggers might do.

 

[phylodog]

nah

 

[hpclayto]

I thought about that, but I'm not sure that's the right question. If a department doesn't have one, they couldn't very well justify purchase based on past use. Similarly, a department that had used one 500 times 20 years ago might not actually need one due to a major shift in crime statistics. I think a better method would be to look at the number of recent incidents with people pinned down in a shootout with heavily armed criminals.

But I don't want to appear evasive, so if we accept the question, I'll answer it with a caveat. I think 1 legitimate use every 6 months would be a good justification. But I'm not talking bringing it out on a SWAT run. If you have one and use it for that, fine. But that doesn't justify the expense. Are Bloomington PD or citizens pinned down by gunfire on average twice a year, and in such a way that the only reasonable means of rescue would require an armored vehicle?

Not sure, guess you'd have to ask them, I can only think of a handful during the 4 years I worked there. What if it's x number of times one year and none the next? Saying it's not needed because it's Bloomington is such a dumb argument. No community is immune to violence, people hopped up on dope and people with mental illness. Population size does not directly correlate to craziness.

 

[Woobie]

Not sure, guess you'd have to ask them, I can only think of a handful during the 4 years I worked there. What if it's x number of times one year and none the next? Saying it's not needed because it's Bloomington is such a dumb argument. No community is immune to violence, people hopped up on dope and people with mental illness. Population size does not directly correlate to craziness.

To your first question, you would have to average it out. That is my fault for not clarifying. But you would also have to examine trends. If you average 6 times per year but haven't used it in 10 years, and your violent crime rate is on the decline, you can't point to the average as justification.

Of course Bloomington isn't immune. Americans aren't immune to malaria, either. That doesn't automatically mean we vaccinate everyone. There needs to be a documented reason. Saying Bloomington or Muncie cops need an Armored Vehicle because Indy cops get in all kinds of nasty situations is like saying Americans need malaria vaccines because millions of people each year die from Malaria.

 

[hpclayto]

To your first question, you would have to average it out. That is my fault for not clarifying. But you would also have to examine trends. If you average 6 times per year but haven't used it in 10 years, and your violent crime rate is on the decline, you can't point to the average as justification.

Of course Bloomington isn't immune. Americans aren't immune to malaria, either. That doesn't automatically mean we vaccinate everyone. There needs to be a documented reason. Saying Bloomington or Muncie cops need an Armored Vehicle because Indy cops get in all kinds of nasty situations is like saying Americans need malaria vaccines because millions of people each year die from Malaria.

Why not? It's the same occupation. I guess there should be a requirement of victimization before the state should issue you a LTCH as well. Or they should only issue them in cities where the robbery/murdery rate is a certain percentage.

 

[Woobie]

Why not? It's the same occupation. I guess there should be a requirement of victimization before the state should issue you a LTCH as well. Or they should only issue them in cities where the robbery/murdery rate is a certain percentage.

By that logic the cops in my little town should have an armored vehicle. After all, they're doing the same job. And you've already said the size of the municipality doesn't make a difference.

I wasn't aware the possession of a privately purchased handgun was such a burden on taxpayers. I'm not the one asking taxpayers to buy me stuff to protect myself. When you start playing with other people's' money, expect them to scrutinize what you do with it. You will never see me complain about what someone else does with their own money, or how they protect themselves. But I've got all sorts of complaints about what government does with our money. This really is a minor one, but it has demonstrated beautifully why our country is broke. Everyone talks about killing off the pork, but no one wants to lose their pet pig.

 

[seedubs1]

.....better buy them an a10 warthog.....you know.....before they need it. Maybe they can use it for speeding enforcement

 

[hpclayto]

By that logic the cops in my little town should have an armored vehicle. After all, they're doing the same job. And you've already said the size of the municipality doesn't make a difference.

I wasn't aware the possession of a privately purchased handgun was such a burden on taxpayers. I'm not the one asking taxpayers to buy me stuff to protect myself. When you start playing with other people's' money, expect them to scrutinize what you do with it. You will never see me complain about what someone else does with their own money, or how they protect themselves. But I've got all sorts of complaints about what government does with our money. This really is a minor one, but it has demonstrated beautifully why our country is broke. Everyone talks about killing off the pork, but no one wants to lose their pet pig.

That's fair. Im glad Monroe County got their vehicle. We'll just have to agree to disagree and the world will continue to spin.

 

[hpclayto]

Please let us know if they get one so I can apply and fly that baby.

 

[seedubs1]

Please let us know if they get one so I can apply and fly that baby.

 

[bwframe]

I dunno whether they need the fancy truck or not? I think it is suspect when the mayor and chief have to come out with an apology. We know their politics.

---------------------------------

I remember years ago sitting in a few Brown County school board meetings. A lot of us gray hairs got a schooling on "if we don't spend it, we won't get the money."

After the board threatened the large public turnout, we were successful at stopping them from building an unnecessary new high school. However, not before they paid multiple millions for flood plane property to build it on.

 

[Woobie]

I dunno whether they need the fancy truck or not? I think it is suspect when the mayor and chief have to come out with an apology. We know their politics.

---------------------------------

I remember years ago sitting in a few Brown County school board meetings. A lot of us gray hairs got a schooling on "if we don't spend it, we won't get the money."

After the board threatened the large public turnout, we were successful at stopping them from building an unnecessary new high school. However, not before they paid multiple millions for flood plane property to build it on.

Lol, Priceless.

 

[bwframe]

Black Lives Matter Bloomington issues demands regarding controversial police vehicle

...Black Lives Matter Bloomington released a list of five demands Monday related to the police department's purchase of an armored vehicle.

The demands outline steps for elected officials to continue community dialogue about the police purchasing decisions and call for city officials to put an immediate hold on the purchase of the Lenco BearCat.

"What started with the BearCat is just the tip of the iceberg," said Vauhxx Booker. "We want to look at the processes local government uses as whole."

The list of demands come in anticipation of Tuesday's Board of Public Safety meeting and two public meetings on the controversial $225,000 vehicle and the way in which it was purchased...

 

[seedubs1]

 

[Leonidas]

Info

An armored vehicle is not a military specific vehicle. These aren’t an offensive vehicle either. It’s a mobile hard point that provides an area of true cover during enforcement operations. Team members dismount the APC and conduct whatever the mission on the objective. If problems occur and they need a rally point that provides true cover or a place to evacuate wounded, the APC provides that capability. A team in Texas conducted a warrant at a trailer park, the suspect shot the team leader in the neck. The TL was evacuated to their APC where the team doc, who stays in the APC, provided a life saving cricothyrotomy and saved the TLs life. These are why APCs are used. In active shooter scenarios they can roll up and provide true cover for evacuees as well. Nothing “militaristic” or scary if folks understand the true uses. Also, Bloomington, like all cities, provides mutual aid to federal, state and other localities in Indiana. NYC just paid a Muslim female criminal $180000 because she had to take off her hijab for an arrest photo and she was offended. Is that better use of tax $...

 

[ghitch75]

Black Lives Matter Bloomington issues demands regarding controversial police vehicle

...Black Lives Matter Bloomington released a list of five demands Monday related to the police department's purchase of an armored vehicle.

The demands outline steps for elected officials to continue community dialogue about the police purchasing decisions and call for city officials to put an immediate hold on the purchase of the Lenco BearCat.

"What started with the BearCat is just the tip of the iceberg," said Vauhxx Booker. "We want to look at the processes local government uses as whole."

The list of demands come in anticipation of Tuesday's Board of Public Safety meeting and two public meetings on the controversial $225,000 vehicle and the way in which it was purchased...

Booker is a felon and should have no voice in it..