Bringing a grand old French dame to the range: MLE 1866 Chassepot

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  • Beowulf

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    With the ammo shortage going into year two, I've gotten way more into black powder lately.

    Recently, I picked up an MLE 1866 Chassepot needle rifle. Mine was made in 1873 at the St. Etienne, under the 2nd Republic. Rifle was only missing a screw on the trigger guard and the rubber gaskets. While the screw is still alluding me (if anyone has one, hit me up), luckily spare gaskets (as well as needles and main springs) are readily available from Naah Tool Works, who make modern repros of these components, since they are basically consumables for these guns.

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    I scoured Youtube and a bunch of forums and came up with several "easy" methods for making the paper cartridges for this gun. The trick is that there needs to be a percussion cap in the bottom of the paper cartridge, with the bottom of the cap facing the bolt. It needs to be firmly enough in place that when the trigger is pulled, the needle pushes through the bottom of the cartridge, hitting the percussion cap and setting it off, igniting the main powder charge.

    I took all the research I did and came up with two different designs.

    Both designs used 2.5" gummed paper tape (like the post office uses) to make the tube. I found some 12mm aluminum rods and used them as the forming mandrel. I also used a piece of scrap 2x4 and put a 12mm hole in it (well a little bigger) to use as a former.

    The bullet is a .457 diameter, 405gr lead air gun bullet. I wasn't able to find .45-70 bullets anywhere, but I stumbled over these air gun bullets and they worked pretty well. I just got a mold for a proper Chassepot bullet, so in the future, I'll be using the proper bullet for the gun.

    The percussion cap (a standard 4 wing musket cap) is glued to a small 12mm cardboard disk, which is then glued to the bottom of the tube. Several of the sources I read and watched talked about using a cap gun caps to provide a little extra oomph along with filling the cap with FFFFg priming powder, before gluing the cardboard disc to it. So I did both.

    ACtC-3c-QuFGRxV7xWGTHaC0XUTeRufyuH76krWeFkDpzhnEtf_yaN5YbeeU7hGStA4fd8Hj86rR7IWJ8nuStGbTkX_beRVRUoBIHMYRUuKoIt_YHjkif1QQ49pRMCM1_WvtRFJ_GZHKD5-W70QaOM5E2w9vPg=w1469-h937-no


    Design 1: paper tube with the bottom quarter inch cut into flaps. Cap and disc go at the bottom and then the flaps are glued down, sealing one side. Then the bottom and lower sides of the tube are coated with a glue stick and a slightly bigger paper disc is pressed to the bottom using the rod and the block, sealing it. The tube is filled FFg powder (approx 82 grains). Another 12mm disc is put in and the powder is compressed. Then finally the bullet, coated in glue stick glue, is put in and the end is crimped around the bullet.

    ACtC-3dS_shqS9_hGZUjrI1WM1w349yBAIxLQOWE9iy1NlQ4u-UYHhkfevZ2pYqPsWpkjoZDy9P26aCq4HYKsgvurdWJ5-RWuM2YMbHBe4jCjZ1hJ8szN_fFxiFfWkMg-51Hn-1RRVry13UVGGCROXyC4R-zRg=w703-h938-no


    Design 2: Similar to design 1, except I used a 2" firework tube as internal support. The head of the musket cap fits perfectly inside the firework tube. After the cartridge tube is filled with powder (only about 65 to 70gr fit), a paper disc is put in place and the bullet then rests right on the tube. I found later that this actually makes the round a bit too long, which caused some problems at the range, so I'm going to cut down these tube with an exacto knife to be about quarter inch shorter. The bullet won't rest on the top of the tube anymore and this should let me adjust the length more easily (plus fit a bit more powder).

    ACtC-3cn0jTsL5Ljmw9RBJMpWMJVYXSKrMXxP1hX7vqJ-iiEzFPGAm4tJKGA_WvGOFUTyb5X46OyssSyh-BibGVCEWkkONvnetqLaaGuIXp4REQz2vfOc6IpNJY7OAlT-3R2jAgsi4LAoZSAaaEb7pQ2hbBsPg=w703-h937-no


    I built one sample cartridge of each, using a cream of wheat dummy charge, so I could test the ignition in my basement. Both worked perfectly:

    ACtC-3cjaoB6klJIePjEwxrYaOY6gCtiH2UpwMQj_lN8D0fGZ_NWytClFZTmOnIYFsM8_ql7KYOf0jCIZqJb8EiqLp1qK4a25Qt7Vp-LdXmB4gntWLuRFMo4K78BhsR03gkNY8C93OiZ1X0sVMtKjXS79IYpcw=w703-h937-no


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    Having validated my design, I went ahead and worked up 22 rounds, making 9 FFg black powder rounds of each type and 2 Pyrodex RS to see if that would work (plus it lets me use up this Pyrodex I've had sitting around for 20 years or so).

    ACtC-3czn6X5J-4ZR1kkWj3iJFGw9EfSh1F7Hdu-DWsX1Q5G6qjQNQxMP81qcVemnlENUEBL9-_uNi-MqRizbxzJfFVPe92q2Rn19RRRz4KeTn1NuXtPIQxttah8OcrdREZRYXO4s7k0By7EKZ0Yxtma-OijrA=w1292-h860-no
     

    Beowulf

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    I went to the range this past weekend to try out my new rounds. I'm happy to report that 20 of 22 fire successfully. Of the two that didn't, one wasn't surprising, since the cap ended up sideways in the round (I finished it anyway just to see if it would work... it didn't). The other one ended up being a bit too short, so it didn't get punctured properly.

    The recoil was surprisingly mild, given that these were equivalent to the old black powder .45-70 military loads.

    I recorded the tests and stitched together a video that I put up:

     

    Mongo59

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    It is good to hear that the cream of wheat didn't let you down.

    Dang man, when they say 'shelter in place' you really shelter in place.

    I am going to bring you some dino DNA I want cloned!

    All kidding aside, you are the man! That is awesome!
     

    MrSmitty

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    Neato! It's cool seeing old guns put back to work (or play).....that's a lot of work, but seems to be worth it, and yes, more pictures of the gun....
     

    Beowulf

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    Thanks for the replies.

    Honestly, it wasn’t that bad getting it running again. The work of some spare time over a couple weeks. I can make the rounds much faster now that I have a pattern to follow.

    I’ll work on getting some better pictures of the gun itself.
     

    92FSTech

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    Very cool...that's taking reloading to a whole new (or well, old) level! I'm impressed. I'm curious as to what happens to the cartridge after the round is fired? From watching the video, it looks like it leaves some residue in there that you need to remove before loading the next one. Does it vaporize most of it, or does it leave behind a bunch of detrius that you need to clean out?
     

    Beowulf

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    Very cool...that's taking reloading to a whole new (or well, old) level! I'm impressed. I'm curious as to what happens to the cartridge after the round is fired? From watching the video, it looks like it leaves some residue in there that you need to remove before loading the next one. Does it vaporize most of it, or does it leave behind a bunch of detrius that you need to clean out?
    Theoretically, it should be forced out of the gun along with the bullet. The original cartridges were wrapped in silk, which kept them from burning. I tried finding remnants of the tubes down range, but couldn't locate any, so I don't know if they just mostly burned or what.

    The detritus left behind was usually only a few charred flakes and caked on residue that coated the bolt face. The design is interesting in that the rubber gasket that seals the breech is behind a cone projection that the needle goes through. So there is open air between the back of the cartridge and the seal. I'm wondering if this design is what allows the cartridge wrapper to be force out?

    Occasionally, I was getting a chunk of the back stuck on the needle cone, sometimes with the cap gun cap. I might try making some rounds without the cap gun caps and see if they ignite just as well. The cap gun cap idea came from a series of Youtube videos done by "The Natural Man", but he did mention that his gun had a blunt needle. On my test rounds, I could see the needle had punched all the way through the musket cap, so maybe I just need the FFFFg powder filled musket cap.
     

    Sylvain

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    If it wasn't for American gun owners all those old French rifles would have been destroyed.

    We have a few left in museums but sadly they are rendered inoperable.
    They are placed in museums to be "preserved" but they have to be damaged in order to do so ...

    le-cadeau-de-francois-xavier-weibel-de-strasbourg-notamment-un-fusil-mauser-avec-sa-baionnette-un-fusil-chassepot-avec-deux-baionnettes-dont-l-une-fabriquee-par-la-manufacture-d-armes-blanches-de-mutzig-un-petit-sabre-d-apparat-et-une-illustration-d-une-prise-d-armes-sur-la-place-broglie-a-strasbourg-ces-objets-en-tres-bon-etat-seront-presentes-au-musee-lors-d-une-exposition-avec-d-autres-dons-de-particuliers-document-remis-1609759410.jpg


    I'm glad to see them in the hands of collectors who will maintain them with pride.

    I found a picture of original ammo kept in the Army museum in Paris.

    KV0Y7CWO-TmD0VbAh_sgewItVLsDEcBBiCOxFAdKTT50j-XFG1o2qIcSIomZLCyxbzi8aUCB_mQt57CU3gcWD1jDVH_PE8AWNYW89ffl1JTO_wSyC_Hh8tM


    Some models have been converted into 12 gauge, single shot, shotguns.

    AiXyW_nnLuf2-_KZIP3VS3vgCZsG-2UdVsKV6GLdSeZaJGWniDZuWvi09Mo0MkHIS6CwSxVZpcAoZ5Dt_Zx5g-K4gNR9M2ZZzFoIt6IvD-m0BTxsvZXNeoGjEZMsaMyPJqOMrZtn3Sk
     

    Beowulf

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    If it wasn't for American gun owners all those old French rifles would have been destroyed.

    We have a few left in museums but sadly they are rendered inoperable.
    They are placed in museums to be "preserved" but they have to be damaged in order to do so ...

    le-cadeau-de-francois-xavier-weibel-de-strasbourg-notamment-un-fusil-mauser-avec-sa-baionnette-un-fusil-chassepot-avec-deux-baionnettes-dont-l-une-fabriquee-par-la-manufacture-d-armes-blanches-de-mutzig-un-petit-sabre-d-apparat-et-une-illustration-d-une-prise-d-armes-sur-la-place-broglie-a-strasbourg-ces-objets-en-tres-bon-etat-seront-presentes-au-musee-lors-d-une-exposition-avec-d-autres-dons-de-particuliers-document-remis-1609759410.jpg


    I'm glad to see them in the hands of collectors who will maintain them with pride.

    I found a picture of original ammo kept in the Army museum in Paris.

    KV0Y7CWO-TmD0VbAh_sgewItVLsDEcBBiCOxFAdKTT50j-XFG1o2qIcSIomZLCyxbzi8aUCB_mQt57CU3gcWD1jDVH_PE8AWNYW89ffl1JTO_wSyC_Hh8tM


    Some models have been converted into 12 gauge, single shot, shotguns.

    AiXyW_nnLuf2-_KZIP3VS3vgCZsG-2UdVsKV6GLdSeZaJGWniDZuWvi09Mo0MkHIS6CwSxVZpcAoZ5Dt_Zx5g-K4gNR9M2ZZzFoIt6IvD-m0BTxsvZXNeoGjEZMsaMyPJqOMrZtn3Sk

    It is a shame. That seems to be the case over most of the world, with only a few countries "allowing" their citizens own functional guns and thus preserve history.

    For the Chassepots, I'm sure they are a bit rarer than some others of the same era, given how many of them were converted by the French military to the Gras in the mid-1870s. Sort of like the Italian 1844 rifles, when a lot them were converted to the 1844/67 Carcanos (though I would love to get my hands on one of those, as those, along with the Dreyse, were the 3 main needle guns of the period).
     

    Sylvain

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    It is a shame. That seems to be the case over most of the world, with only a few countries "allowing" their citizens own functional guns and thus preserve history.

    For the Chassepots, I'm sure they are a bit rarer than some others of the same era, given how many of them were converted by the French military to the Gras in the mid-1870s. Sort of like the Italian 1844 rifles, when a lot them were converted to the 1844/67 Carcanos (though I would love to get my hands on one of those, as those, along with the Dreyse, were the 3 main needle guns of the period).
    Well people can own guns in France but the law limits the number of guns a single person can own.
    You also have to go thru a bunch of paperwork and get "buying licences" each time you want to buy a gun.
    A bit similar to NFA paperwork and the process to own full-auto stuff in the US (similar but worst since you have to see physicians and more).

    I'm sure a few folks own some Chassepots in France but since they have to go thru so much trouble to get one firearm they usually rather get something else (like a modern AR-15).

    Now guns illegally owned kept in the family that's another story.
    A lot of folks do own unregistered military firearms.
    We had 2 world wars on our soil so there are a lot of those.
     

    Beowulf

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    Well people can own guns in France but the law limits the number of guns a single person can own.
    You also have to go thru a bunch of paperwork and get "buying licences" each time you want to buy a gun.
    A bit similar to NFA paperwork and the process to own full-auto stuff in the US (similar but worst since you have to see physicians and more).

    I'm sure a few folks own some Chassepots in France but since they have to go thru so much trouble to get one firearm they usually rather get something else (like a modern AR-15).

    Now guns illegally owned kept in the family that's another story.
    A lot of folks do own unregistered military firearms.
    We had 2 world wars on our soil so there are a lot of those.
    I'll bet. Especially after the occupation and liberation of France. I bet a lot of heavy duty hardware was socked away by resistance groups and then just never got turned into the reconstituted French government.
     

    Sylvain

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    I'll bet. Especially after the occupation and liberation of France. I bet a lot of heavy duty hardware was socked away by resistance groups and then just never got turned into the reconstituted French government.
    They are still finding hidden weapons to this day.
    Anything from anti-tank weapons to machine guns.
    They are either buried in the woods or kept in grandpa's attic.
    Sometimes they still even find tanks in barns more than 70 years after the end of the war.

    Two years ago a jogger found two live Panzerfausts (WW2 German RPG) in a local foret.
     

    Beowulf

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    As promised a few more pictures. Note, I am not a photographer and apparently my basement office/gun cave has the worst lighting on the planet (the wife got the office with actual windows on the main floor... go figure).


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    thompal

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    Well people can own guns in France but the law limits the number of guns a single person can own.
    You also have to go thru a bunch of paperwork and get "buying licences" each time you want to buy a gun.
    A bit similar to NFA paperwork and the process to own full-auto stuff in the US (similar but worst since you have to see physicians and more).

    Are the rules in France different for the different "classes" of firearms (pistol, semi-auto rifle, sub-gun)?
     

    Sylvain

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    Are the rules in France different for the different "classes" of firearms (pistol, semi-auto rifle, sub-gun)?

    Things are classified by calibers mostly.
    It's harder to get a permit to own a 9mm handgun than it is to own a .22 handgun for example.
    But it's easier to get a permit for a .44 magnum revolver than it is a 9mm.
    It depends if they are "military calibers" or not I think.

    The same rule applied to some local police for a while.
    They could carry .380 pistols, or .45 handguns but not 9mm handguns.

    It doesn't really make sense like you can imagine.

    We don't really have sub-guns or SBRs.

    If I legally own a pistol (let's say a Glock 17) I can legally add a foregrip or a stock to it, it stays a pistol.

    Those add-on stocks and grips are popular here.

    No NFA stuff, same for silencers.
    They are not registered and don't have extra taxes, they are like hear-muffs.

    I can buy all those parts online delivered to my door and add them to a pistol legally.

    In the picture bellow that's a 9mm carbine and 3 handguns.

    The handgun is registerer, not the stock or silencer.

    dsc02923.jpg


    In the US you can't take a NFA item outside of your state without noticing the ATF first.

    In France you can go all over the country with those guns, even to another EU state if you are registered in a European shooting competition.
     
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