Buying a muzzle loader on Gun Broker

[xHwyLT]

I recently won a TC muzzle loader from a company in Illinois. When I requested that they ship the item to my house, they told me that I had to have it shipped to an FFL dealer. I told them it was not required by my state, nor the Federal government. They told me that Illinois required it.



Seems like Illinois has now decided that muzzle loaders are a NICS check item, (Form 4473 required item) in that state. So if you want to purchase a muzzle loader from a store/company in Illinois, be prepared to pay an FFL transfer fee, in addition to the shipping fee, and the price of the gun.



Will the madness never end?

 

[rob63]

I ran into that at an auction I attended a few years ago. It never dawned on me to even check first if it was ok to buy a Civil War era gun, just assumed it was no big deal. NICS check and 7 day wait. The most amazing part for me was that when I ate lunch I talked about it with some of the locals that were at the auction and they just accepted it as normal. One of them even praised the idea as great because it reduces crime. I was absolutely stunned that someone would say that about antique guns. This was a gun auction, attended only by gun owners!

 

[Mgderf]

Which T/C muzzle loader did you get?
I have a muzzle loader barrel for my Thomson Contender, but it can also hold a pistol or rifle barrel, which classifies it as a firearm, in ANY state.

That said, Illinois is famous for infringing on that which it is not supposed to.

 

[xHwyLT]

Which T/C muzzle loader did you get?
I have a muzzle loader barrel for my Thomson Contender, but it can also hold a pistol or rifle barrel, which classifies it as a firearm, in ANY state.

That said, Illinois is famous for infringing on that which it is not supposed to.

I purchased a TC New Englander (percussion sidelock). It definitely is not a candidate for a Contender barrel. If I would have known, I would never have bid on it. I did see the little note regarding "Requires FFL? Yes", BUT, I have run into this before, and whenever questioned, I was always told that the person filling out the form clicked "yes" as a matter of habit. I'm willing to bet that 98% of muzzle loader shooters would have made the same assumption.

 

[remauto1187]

I recently won a TC muzzle loader from a company in Illinois. When I requested that they ship the item to my house, they told me that I had to have it shipped to an FFL dealer. I told them it was not required by my state, nor the Federal government. They told me that Illinois required it.



Seems like Illinois has now decided that muzzle loaders are a NICS check item, (Form 4473 required item) in that state. So if you want to purchase a muzzle loader from a store/company in Illinois, be prepared to pay an FFL transfer fee, in addition to the shipping fee, and the price of the gun.



Will the madness never end?

Any muzzleloader that CANNOT be readily converted to a centerfire or rimfire cartride (IE: Thompson Contender) is considered a Antique Firearm(Manufactured in or prior to 1898) and the buyer DOES NOT have to go through a background(4473) check to purchase it even though the muzzleloader was manufactured well after 1898.

Straight from the horses mouth http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/industry/0501-firearms-top-10-qas.pdf and some other frequently asked questions too.

 

[BogWalker]

That's the federal regulation; the issue at hand it based in Illinois state law.

 

[remauto1187]

That's the federal regulation; the issue at hand it based in Illinois state law.

Straight from the horse in Illinois mouth :
""Firearm" means any device, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas; excluding however:

1. any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun or B-B gun which either expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter and which has a maximum muzzle velocity of less than 700 feet per second or breakable paint balls containing washable marking colors;
2. any device used exclusively for signalling or safety and required or recommended by the United States Coast Guard or the Interstate Commerce Commission;
3. any device used exclusively for the firing of stud cartridges, explosive rivets or similar industrial ammunition; and
4. an antique firearm (other than a machine-gun) which, although designed as a weapon, the Department of State Police finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon. "

Source: IL State Police: Firearm Owner's Frequently Asked Questions


A muzzleloader is NOT a Firearm since it is not likely to be used as a weapon. I was born and raised in Illinois (Became IN resident last year) and I have never filled out a 4473 for a muzzleloader. The shop that the OP is dealing with on gunbroker just dont know the rules/law.

And BTW...BOTH state and Federal law apply since the OP lives in Indiana and the muzzleloader is in IL so it would be traveling across state lines. Doesnt matter though since its not considered a firearm in IL nor the Feds.

 

[jy951]

They may have to ship it to your ffl, however, when you pick it up, your ffl will not have to do a background check. They should just hand it over.

 

[remauto1187]

Illinois is stupid with Gun laws IMO

Its not a IL "gun law". (read above). Its a muzzleloader seller that does not know what the laws are.

 

[xHwyLT]

Its not a IL "gun law". (read above). Its a muzzleloader seller that does not know what the laws are.

Your correct, I checked with a couple of other gun stores in Illinois, and they said that they could sell muzzleloaders to out of state residents wthout it going thru an FFL.

 

[xHwyLT]

They may have to ship it to your ffl, however, when you pick it up, your ffl will not have to do a background check. They should just hand it over.

That's not the point, I don't care about the background check, it just the extra BS, and cost the store is making me go thru, sending it to an FFL, then having to go pick it up at that location, and for what? Because the dummy doesn't know his own state's laws, or he decides to make up additional restrictions on my right to purchase a BP rifle without it being sent to an FFL?

 

[sun]

I've bought a BP rifle from an Illinois dealer who required sending it to my FFL dealer.
Unfortunately that's a common practice with Illinois dealers.
On the other hand, I've also bought a BP gun from a private Illinois citizen who didn't mind sending it direct to me.
We discussed it and he agreed that it was an additional hurdle and expense that shouldn't be necessary.
But dealers are often more concerned about liability.
There's a dealer here that does a background check when selling a BP gun even though he doesn't need to.
He said that he doesn't want any trouble with the ATF because he has a Class 3 FFL etc...
Another dealer here requires muzzle loader buyers to fill out the Federal firearms form but doesn't perform a background check. It's just for his own records.

 

[jy951]

Well it's kind of the point since your initial post said be prepared to pay a transfer fee. I'm just offering a simple solution. No need for the hostility.

That's not the point, I don't care about the background check, it just the extra BS, and cost the store is making me go thru, sending it to an FFL, then having to go pick it up at that location, and for what? Because the dummy doesn't know his own state's laws, or he decides to make up additional restrictions on my right to purchase a BP rifle without it being sent to an FFL?

 

[spaniel]

That's not the point, I don't care about the background check, it just the extra BS, and cost the store is making me go thru, sending it to an FFL, then having to go pick it up at that location, and for what? Because the dummy doesn't know his own state's laws, or he decides to make up additional restrictions on my right to purchase a BP rifle without it being sent to an FFL?

Your frustration is understandable, however it sounds like you didn't clear the arrangement with him in advance. While the law may set the minimum, a business owner is free to set their own additional rules. If you don't like them, you are free to speak with your wallet.

My go-to FFL...In Indiana...does not accept from private sellers. Only other FFLs. It is not uncommon at all. I get the impression it is less for liability/legal reasons and more for the hassle of dealing with people shipping who don't know what they are doing and wasting the FFL's time over a small-profit transfer fee.

 

[xHwyLT]

Well it's kind of the point since your initial post said be prepared to pay a transfer fee. I'm just offering a simple solution. No need for the hostility.

Well jy951 - If you sensed hostility, I'm amazed, since their wasn't any intended. So please accept my apologies. As spaniel picked up from my post, it's more a case of frustration.

 

[xHwyLT]

Your frustration is understandable, however it sounds like you didn't clear the arrangement with him in advance. While the law may set the minimum, a business owner is free to set their own additional rules. If you don't like them, you are free to speak with your wallet.

My go-to FFL...In Indiana...does not accept from private sellers. Only other FFLs. It is not uncommon at all. I get the impression it is less for liability/legal reasons and more for the hassle of dealing with people shipping who don't know what they are doing and wasting the FFL's time over a small-profit transfer fee.

spaniel - Your absolutely correct. It was a mistake on my part. I made a bad assumption, based on past experience. In the past when I purchased a (non-gun) BP muzzle loader, and saw the "FFL needed", I sent an inquiry to the seller, regarding the need for it to be sent to an FFL. In all previous cases (6), the (paraphrased) reply I received back was; "The "FFL needed" part was filled out in error, due to habit, from filling these forms out on a regular basis for firearms." This time I got bit, your also correct in saying that I am free to speak with my wallet. I no longer plan on bidding for any items sold by this establishment. I was posting to warn others who may also run into this problem.