Buying my first large gun Safe, need advice

[defender14]

So I currently own 1 firearm, and it fits nicely in a small Stack On lockbox/safe with electric keypad that I got off of Amazon. It keeps my sr9c out of the hands of my children.

I am ready to start buying some more guns. I'm currently planning on picking up both a handgun and a rifle in 22lr so I can practice with inexpensive ammunition. I don't think I can squeeze a second handgun into the safe I have now, and I definitely can't fit a rifle.

I have a 4 year daughter and a 5 month old son. Whenever guns come up in conversation around my daughter we have a good discussion about them, she know never to touch one and to find an adult right away. I do plan on teaching my daughter all about gun safety and how to shoot in the coming years once I feel she is mature enough and has the attention span necessary to handle a 22lr cricket.

My wife fully supports me getting more firearms when we can afford them, but she wants my next purchase to be a gun safe before I bring another gun into the house...

I have no problem with getting a safe, I just wanted to see what ingo thought about safes in general since I don't recall seeing too many posts on buying your first gun safe.

My preferred budget is $400, my absolute top end budget $750 (but then I wouldn't be able to buy a rifle to put in it), spending less is obviously great.

My main purpose for the safe is to keep firearms away from my children. I think I would like a safe that can hold at least half a dozen long guns, a few handguns, and miscellaneous ammo and such.

My wife and I have casually browsed the selection of safes at Gander Mountain and Dicks in Castleton in the past, but we never took the time to really inspect them

I was recently looking at the various "Gun Cabinets" online because they are very affordable. When I showed my wife a picture of one she immediately said no way, she didn't think it looked secure enough to keep our 4 year old out. I can't really argue with her based off of seeing pictures, so we are planning on going to look at safes/cabinets here on the northside this weekend.

- Would a "Gun Cabinet" be adequate for my purposes or keeping firearms locked away so that my children do not have access to them?
- Are there any specific safes/brands I should stay away from?
- Is my budget unrealistic?
- I know Dicks and Gander Mountain have gun safes, are there any other places on the north east side of town that have some that I would be able to check out?
- Are there any features that I should really look into? (fireproof and such)

Thanks for any replies

 

[Jay]

Buy as big a safe as you can afford. As time goes on, you'll fill it up. Generally speaking, the fire rating, number of locking lugs, and heavier weight, indicate the higher quality safes. There are various opinions on electronic vs. manusl combination locks. I prefer manual combinations, because I'm old, and Mr Murphy has played games with some other battery-powered devices in the past. Suit self in that regard

Regarding the children.... educate them.... keep the guns locked up, but do not make guns a mysterious, or forbidden thing. If you do, the child will eventually gain access, if for no other reason than to see what all the fuss is about. When the kids were around 4 or so, I left an old, non-functional pellet pistol laying around the house. When they finally noticed it and asked, I answered... no lecture, just answered their question. This process repeated itself several times, and eventually led to safety discussions, and finally range time.

Unsolicited advice... Do NOT store your primary home/personal defense weapon in that safe..... unless you can convince an intruder to stand by while you retrieve your gun.

 

[IndianaGTI]

Buy as big as you can afford AND make sure it has round locking lugs all the way around. I saw a huge heavy safe with a good fire rating which only had a flat locking lug at top and bottom. The thieves eventually beat the door in with a sledgehammer to gain access. This is after they cut the hinges off and attempted to cut through the door with a torch. Neither worked but the weak point was the locking lugs.

 

[defender14]

Unsolicited advice... Do NOT store your primary home/personal defense weapon in that safe..... unless you can convince an intruder to stand by while you retrieve your gun.

I agree, I plan to keep my primary handgun in the small safe that I have now which is in my bedroom, I can open it rather quickly with the keypad, I just wish I could make it not beep when entering the combination...

Buy as big as you can afford AND make sure it has round locking lugs all the way around. I saw a huge heavy safe with a good fire rating which only had a flat locking lug at top and bottom. The thieves eventually beat the door in with a sledgehammer to gain access. This is after they cut the hinges off and attempted to cut through the door with a torch. Neither worked but the weak point was the locking lugs.

Thanks for the tip, theft deterrent is an added bonus of a gun safe to me, the main purpose is to keep my firearms out of reach of my children. Fire protections sounds good too, I guess it is just the tradeoff of how much money I actually want to part with... the only problem being the more I spend on a safe the less i have left over to buy things to fill it with

 

[CountryBoy19]

Buy as big as you can afford AND make sure it has round locking lugs all the way around. I saw a huge heavy safe with a good fire rating which only had a flat locking lug at top and bottom. The thieves eventually beat the door in with a sledgehammer to gain access. This is after they cut the hinges off and attempted to cut through the door with a torch. Neither worked but the weak point was the locking lugs.

Just to further clarify, it's not necessarily the shape of the lug, some of the top end TL30T6 safes out there have flat locking lugs... but they are thick, and hardened...

IMHO, the cheap $300-1200 "safes" you buy at every corner store are not worth the money. They are essentially a thin sheet-metal box with some drywall for "insulation" and a lock on them. There are MANY security failures in the design and they are very easily defeated.

I would just buy a cheap locking cabinet for now and wait until you can afford to spend about $2k on a Sturdy safe. It isn't a TL30T6 safe, but it doesn't cost $10k+ like one either. It does, however, take into account many of the design aspects of true "safes" and it is IMHO, the BEST "bang for you buck" out there on safes. It doesn't use cheap drywall for insulation either so your guns won't be rusty when you open it; Sturdy uses ceramic wool high temperature insulation.


Why cheap out on the "safe" that you plan to keep your expensive guns in? Some people have collections worth $20k or more and then they store them in a $400 safe... WHY?

 

[shootinghoosier]

This -->

Why cheap out on the "safe" that you plan to keep your expensive guns in? Some people have collections worth $20k or more and then they store them in a $400 safe... WHY?

Johnson Safe in Zionsville makes some great safes. If you can hold off and save your money to buy one of his, you will not be disappointed. You also might talk with Jeff Johnson and ask him to notify you when he receives a trade-in if you are really looking at shaving a few bucks.

 

[kludge]

So I currently own 1 firearm,

My wife fully supports me getting more firearms when we can afford them, but she wants my next purchase to be a gun safe before I bring another gun into the house...

My preferred budget is $400,

My main purpose for the safe is to keep firearms away from my children.

I was recently looking at the various "Gun Cabinets" online because they are very affordable. When I showed my wife a picture of one she immediately said no way, she didn't think it looked secure enough to keep our 4 year old out.

I have 5 kids, and yes, they will keep the kids out if you do your part. But remember, it's only as secure as the key, and it's your job to teach them well regarding gun safety. (Notice I said "safety" not "handling"... though that will be your job too some day.)

Here's a site both you and your wife can appreciate. Cornered Cat
There's a whole multi-chapter section for kids and guns, and I highly recommend it. Kathy Jackson's web site is relavent, to the point, and thorough. And much of it speaks woman to woman, which you wife can surely appreciate.

Until you have the money for a good safe, an airline approved double rifle case will run you $100-$200 and with a couple pad locks will keep the kids out just as well as a sheet metal gun "locker" or a department store safe. You can fit two rifles or a dozen handgun in one, so it should work for you while you save for a safe. And you can still use it when you get a "real" safe. When you get two rifles and need a place for your pistol, get a pistol case. They are very useful for going back and forth to the range.

For a GOOD safe look here: http://www.sturdysafe.com/

 

[IndyRon]

For a first budget conscious but very good quality safe, this one can't be beat, especially if you plan to have both rifles and handguns in it. It has a decent fire rating, is heavy (almost 300lbs empty), and well-made. It probably won't be the same safe that you are using 20 years from now but is definitely a great safe for someone getting more involved in firearms. It fits your budget and you won't find a better deal for what you get than Lowe's current pricing on it.

Shop Centurion by Liberty Safe 12 Cu. Ft. Black Gun Safe at Lowes.com

 

[dg101win]

You might want to check out the Black Friday listings. These will be coming up soon.
Dicks,Gander Mountain,Cabelas, Menards and Lowes.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

As an electronics engineer, I would not consider anything but a mechanical lock. I know too many ways for electronics to fail. It may take a couple of extra seconds to access something if everything's working, but if everything's not working, you could be into minutes. Or not.

 

[Mech45]

I'm not sure where your located but Blythe's in Griffith has a large selection of gun safes in all different sizes and price ranges. I have bought four safes from them and currently have two. My first one wasn't that big or fancy but it would keep any child and most thieves from getting into it. As I could afford it I would sell the safe I had and upgrade to something larger and higher quality. Buy the biggest and best you can for now and upgrade later if you need or want to. A real safe it worth the peace of mind it provides.

Chris

 

[812homes4u]

Any opinions of the Century Safe that is at Tractor Supply? I believe it is 1000.00 The size looks good but im not sure on quality.

 

[DeadeyeChrista'sdad]

I'd highly recommend the black Friday sales, too. And if you're on a close budget, and it sounds like you are, I'd not be ashamed to get one of the metal gun cabinets. They'll keep the kids out, and make dandy ammo cabinets in a few years when your finances allow you to buy a heavier safe with a good fire rating, and your collection has grown into needing one.

 

[defender14]

Why cheap out on the "safe" that you plan to keep your expensive guns in? Some people have collections worth $20k or more and then they store them in a $400 safe... WHY?

I understand that thinking, but you also have to realize I currently own 1 firearm that cost me $400, I do not plan on owning a firearm that will cost me over $1000 for quite some time. For now I htink I can get something that will keep the kids out and protect against some fire for $400, thanks for the input though

Johnson Safe in Zionsville makes some great safes.

I love supporting local business, when I have a larger collection and am actually a homeowner I will be looking into making a call over there

Here's a site both you and your wife can appreciate. Cornered Cat
...
For a GOOD safe look here: http://www.sturdysafe.com/

Thanks for the links

Shop Centurion by Liberty Safe 12 Cu. Ft. Black Gun Safe at Lowes.com

Thanks for the link IndyRon, I completely forgot about checking "home improvement" stores

You might want to check out the Black Friday listings. These will be coming up soon.
Dicks,Gander Mountain,Cabelas, Menards and Lowes.

Good advice, looks like a great deal is going to be had at Dicks, more on that below

As an electronics engineer, I would not consider anything but a mechanical lock. I know too many ways for electronics to fail. It may take a couple of extra seconds to access something if everything's working, but if everything's not working, you could be into minutes. Or not.

/agreed

Any opinions of the Century Safe that is at Tractor Supply? I believe it is 1000.00 The size looks good but im not sure on quality.

I am interested in hearing any feedback too, also there is a $300 Sentry Safe 10 gun safe there, not fire rated, but definitely seems to be a better option that one of the "Gun Cabinets"

I'd highly recommend the black Friday sales, too. And if you're on a close budget, and it sounds like you are, I'd not be ashamed to get one of the metal gun cabinets. They'll keep the kids out, and make dandy ammo cabinets in a few years when your finances allow you to buy a heavier safe with a good fire rating, and your collection has grown into needing one.

Yup, black Friday is when I think I will make the purchase.

Dicks has an interesting one, $400 for a 24 Gun Stack-On Fire Safe, I stopped by the Dicks in Castleton yeterday night to check out the safes, they had this 24 gun Stack-On safe (the "elite" model) on the floor to look at, but in the back hallway by the elevators they had 2 of these 24 gun Stack-On safes (the regular, non "elite" model) still in the box. Also the non "elite" one was not set up by their other safes. My paranoid thought is that they will sell you one of the non "Elite" models after showing you the "Elite" one. Even if they did that I think $400 is a good deal. My wife even told me if I got a safe that big I am allowed to buy any firearms I want to put in it, as long as we can afford them, I guess the large size makes here feel it is secure... she said I can get myself an AR-15 for my 30th birthday in April if I get the 24 gun safe

That Century safe from Lowes looks interesting, it does seem to get great reviews, the reviews on Amazon for it claim that it was $297 during the 2010 holiday season, I will be curious to see if it pops up in the Lowes black Friday ad. A non sale price of $400 does seem to be a good price for a 14 gun safe that is rated for some fire.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

Got mine at Dick's, can't remember how much, but it's made by Stack-On. It's rated for fire and water; have to bolt it to the floor in the basement because if it gets flooded it will float.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Okay, what you are referring to as a "safe" is actually an "RSC" or "residential security cabinet". There are various UL ratings and to get into the "safe" category you are talking thousands not hundreds. I would like to point you to a thread I have commented in on the subject without typing for the next 30 minutes, you should find the info useful.https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/accessories_and_gear/164046-gun_safe-4.html

Those are all fine RSCs, but make no mistake about it, they are NOT safes. Fire protection can be increased with the addition of gypsum board to the inside of them and placement can make entry more time consuming for a burglar.

Youtu.be
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Here is a writeup from a member of another forum. Security is his business.
Quote:
Safes And RSC's, An Overview
I posted this in general because it's a very frequently discussed subject that's continually revisited. However, if it's felt that it belongs elsewhere, please move it.

Let’s take a look at Residential Security Containers, hereafter referred to as RSC’s, and safes. First, let me state that there is no legal provision that I know of that regulates what may, or may not, be called a safe. In other words, I can take Scotch Tape and business cards, tape them into a little box, put a pin across the corner, and legally sell it as a “safe”. Shame on you if you pay good money for it, but it’s an excellent example of caveat emptor.

The best, in my opinion, rater of security containers is Underwriter’s Laboratories. However, simply because a container has a U.L. label it does not mean you are looking at a true safe. Please be aware that there are several rating categories in the U.L. system. I’ll provide my synopsis of the pertinent areas, but it’s beyond the scope of this thread to quote the entire manual. Feel free to go to the official U.L. website & wade through the verbiage if you care to. However, also be aware that U.L. is the only tester that I know of that openly publishes their test parameters. And that’s a significant point when attempting to do an honest comparison of manufacturer’s claims.

The security categories I’ll be talking about are the RSC, construction, attack resistance, and thermal protection. Simply put, an RSC designation means that sheet metal has been used in the construction of the security container. Beyond that, the RSC label means that the container has been tested to resist physical attack by one person, using hand tools (commonly meant to mean a hammer and large screwdriver) with no lever length exceeding 18 inches, for 5 minutes. Many import units now will take the body sheet metal, bend it into the interior, fold it three or four times, & use that as the frame which the bolts lock up behind. What happens when you fold sheet metal? Rhetorical question, folding sheet metal weakens it. It’s possible to view an excellent example of this type of construction by accessing the YouTube video “Security On Sale”. Therein two young men flop an RSC on it’s back & pop the door in one minute and 42 seconds I think. A careful examination of the “crook’s” movement patterns will reveal that they obviously weren’t rehearsed. A frequently heard objection to the methodology of the YouTube video is that if the RSC were bolted upright, the “crooks” couldn’t have done what they did. Please. It’s true that if the RSC were upright, it would have taken them longer, but the point of the video is valid. A major reason I’d think that the RSC was flopped is that most people will sit through a couple of minutes of sales video, but literally won’t sit still for a ten minute video pitch. Nonetheless, no RSC, regardless of other considerations, is high-grade protection from physical attack.

U.L. will not rate a security container as a safe unless all six exterior surfaces are at least ¼” inch thick plate steel. Which brings us to construction ratings. A “B” rate safe will have, at a minimum, quarter inch plate used throughout its exterior construction. The better one’s will have a door of ½” thick steel plate. And the steel will not be mild rolled plate. Better “B” rated safes will use something like A36 high tensile tool steel for their construction. There are further construction ratings such as C, E, F, and beyond. A “C” rated unit will have 5 exterior surfaces of ½” plate and a 1” thick plate door. An “E” rated safe will have 1” thick exterior surfaces with the door being 1.5” thick. The “F” rated safe will incorporate a layer of manganese steel laminated in the exterior surfaces to deter torch attack. Note that the construction ratings of “B” etcetera are not directly comparable to attack resistance ratings of TL, TR, etc. However, careful examination of the two rating systems does allow justifiable conclusions to be drawn.

An attack rating label, such as TL15, certifies that the door will withstand an attempted forced opening by tools for 15 continuous minutes. That’s the door only. If a unit is rated as TL15 X 6, then the entire body of the safe (all six sides) is certified to withstand the attack for 15 minutes. The common ratings concerning tool attack are TL15 and TL30, for 15 and 30 minutes of successful resistance. A TR rating is a resistance to a torch attack. The same time and side parameters apply to the nomenclature. So, if you’re in possession of the TLTR30 X 6 safe, you’ve got one helluva unit. However, that type of unit usually carries a price tag so as to preclude ownership by private individuals. In other words, they are very expensive.

When it comes to thermal protection ratings for home use, the only one to pay any attention to is the U.L. one-hour certification. You will almost certainly run across several different “systems” if you go shopping for a “safe”. There’s the Omega Laboratories label, the Pyro 3000, the BTU certification, and others. Until you know the test parameters of each “system”, it’s impossible to draw any accurate comparisons. What’s more, the only tester that I know of that does publish the aforementioned parameters is Underwriters Laboratories. A thumbnail description of the U.L. process is this: The test safe goes into the furnace, the door is shut & the fire is lit. The one-hour test timer only starts when the furnace temperature rises to 1700 degrees f. At the end of the hour, anything that’s going to pass the test will have its internal test transponder reporting an interior temperature of something like 270 – 280 f. That’s not the end of the test however. The burn in the furnace is stopped, but the furnace remains sealed until it’s internal temperature falls to laboratory ambient, 68 f. At no time can the internal temperature of the test container rise above 350f for the entire test. The 350f figure is the temperature determined by U.L. that data is recoverable from good quality paper. As an aside, the paper quality parameters cover some few pages themselves. Not, “can’t put it down” reading.

When confronting other thermal rating figures, you should ask yourself some questions: “What’s the rise time to test temperature?” “Did the test period timer start when the gas was lit, or when test temperature was reached?” “Was the container placed in the test furnace in the upright position that it would be in my home?” “Did the test include the furnace cool-down time?” Until you know the answers to questions such as these, it’s just not possible to say that the container provides X number of minutes protection at Y temperature, and be able to draw a meaningful conclusion from the numbers.


OK, thermal protection is not rocket science. RSC’s use sheet metal for body construction & they will usually use either sheet rock, i.e. gypsum wallboard, or a foam filler for the insulating medium. Sometimes gypsum board sans paper will be called “fire rock”, don’t be fooled, its the same stuff. In any case, my point is that if you put thicker and denser material between the heat source & what you want saved, you get better protection with plate steel and concrete than with sheet metal and gypsum. The thermal protection offered by virtually all RSC’s is minimal in my experience.

When it comes to container locks, the only two real choices these days are digital, or manual combination. But, there are sub-categories that make substantial differences in both the reliability and protection you get when you buy. Many manual combination dial locks on import RSC’s are what is known as a wheel-pack unit. They are relatively easy to make, offer the three number combination most of us are familiar with, and cannot be told from exterior examination from a high quality unit such as a U.S. made LaGard or S&G. However, if you want the combination changed, the LaGard and Sargent Greenleaf units are made to allow that relatively quickly and easily. The import wheel-pack units are frequently very much a PIA to change the combination. Speaking as a professional locksmith, I will charge you more to change the combination on a low-tech wheel-pack than I will to do the same job on a quality unit that’s made to have it done. There are inherent limitations due to the mechanics of combination dials that absolutely should be adhered to. They are: Each number should be at least 10 digits from the next, and the final number should not lie in the 80-0-20 quadrant. In example, a combination of 30-20-30 is OK, but a combo of 05-10-95 is sure to cause problems. But, there are thousands of possible combinations available to the user within those limitations. On the other hand, wheel-pack units may only offer you a few (12?) possible combinations, depending on the way the thing is built. In any case, I’ll strongly suggest that no end user who has not been trained to do so attempt to change their own manual combination dial. It will cost you major money if you try it & don’t get it exactly right.

Electronic locks offer some very real advantages to manual combination dials. There are also some very real drawbacks. An electronic keypad offers superior speed of opening, by several hundred percent, over the typical manual combo dial. Usually, the electronic keypad lock is far more user friendly when changing the combination also. Just in case though, I’ll offer this common sense rule: Do it with the door open, check it at least three times before trying it with the door closed. Failure to do so will result in your locksmith’s being able to afford a new toy. Another caveat: Always make sure that the electronic lock you’re considering has 1. an external battery, and 2. a burn memory. Locks without a burn memory rely on a capacitor to supply electricity to the memory card while you change the battery. Take more time than the capacitor has current & you may very well have a problem. A lock that has a burned in memory can have the battery removed while you travel around the world & still retain your particular combination upon your return & re-installing the battery.

Oh, and concerns about EMP’s, and super-crooks with monster lap top computers who will plug in to your lock & crack the combo in 28 seconds max are just not real world concerns. If you’re spending time worrying about those, then please also give due consideration to giant meteors and Yellowstone blowing up.

There you have it, my overview of the subject of safes for home use. Please PM me if you have questions about something that wasn’t covered in the article. Thanks for taking the time to read.

 

[IN_Sheepdog]

Be careful... it is a well known fact that firearms, placed in a cool and humidity controlled environment breed at a rate similar to a virus in a petri dish... Just ask my wife!!! (i Know she didnt buy that line either....)

Liberty 35 bought at Blythes in Griffith... Their installers are phenomenal and well worth the extra $$$. (carried in plates to cross the kitchen tile and stairs and turns... they were well worth it ) and the pricing was competitive.

 

[John Galt]

This -->

Johnson Safe in Zionsville makes some great safes. If you can hold off and save your money to buy one of his, you will not be disappointed. You also might talk with Jeff Johnson and ask him to notify you when he receives a trade-in if you are really looking at shaving a few bucks.

+1 on Johnson Safe! I met with Jeff this past summer at the 1500 and had a chance to view his products. I told him what I was wanting and he custom built it exactly how I wanted, delivered and installed it for what I had purchased a lesser quality, larger Browning safe for a couple of years ago. Save up your money and get it right the first time.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I agree with the advice given above. Buying a safe is really like buying insurance. It's all about risk and what you're willing to tolerate vs. how much you're willing to spend.

As an interim measure, while you're saving up for a "good" safe...you could replace your door knob or add a dead bolt to your bedroom closet door to serve as a temporary storage locker. It wouldn't have the security features of a gun safe and would require diligence on you and your wife's part to maintain security. But it would keep the kids out, which is what you said was your primary goal.

FWIW I bought a Liberty Lincoln 35 this year and love it--I'd have no hesitation recommending it.

 

[Osobuco]

I own 2 safes - they are well built, not fireproof and cost me less than $400 each on sale. I do not worry about fireproofing since if the house burns down my homeowners insurance covers me AND I am not married to any one of my guns in particular so the loss would not break my heart....