Caliber wars redux

[HoughMade]

....So how on earth is it that the 9mm is even being brought up as comparable to 45 acp for "stopping power"?.....

Because in real world shootings, not scratch paper and a calculator, there's little to no difference in results.

 

[kawtech87]

My answer to the 9mm vs 45ACP debate is .357 magnum.

It doesn't matter what you carry as long as you can use it when it counts. An old friend of mine says " One good hit with a .22lr is better than 6 misses with a 44 magnum."

 

[88E30M50]

Maybe we should calculate the stopping power by shooting into a 6" circle from 10 feet in 3 seconds. However many rounds impact in that circle get counted towards the stopping power of your pistol. The energy of each round that hits in that circle is summed and the result is the stopping power of the gun for that shooter. The stopping power of a single round of ammo is only moderately useful in determining how well you could stop a threat advancing towards the shooter.

I'm guessing that would toss the whole stopping power argument on its head. I don't pretend to know what the answer will be, but I'm guessing you might find that for some folks, bigger is better if they can only get one round on target. For others that could get maybe 6 rounds of 9mm vs. 4 rounds of 10mm, it might be different. I need to buy a shot timer and practice a bit to see what caliber lets me put the most energy into a target in 3 seconds. In my opinion, that's what its really all about.

 

[chezuki]

I need to buy a shot timer and practice a bit to see what caliber lets me put the most energy into a target in 3 seconds. In my opinion, that's what its really all about.

Unless you run the mag dry because of lower capacity, you'll find that practice has far more effect on this drill than which caliber you use.

Whatever you choose to carry, you have to train with it to be proficient.

 

[jwh20]

I know this has probably been rehashed more times than anyone can count, but I don't find this angle in the search, SO.....

Quick math comparisons between 9mm and 45 lead me to believe that:

1 - Frontal area of 45 ACP is 60% greater than 9mm.

2 - Velocity vs mass only goes so far: a 135 gr (+p?) 9mm loading traveling at 1050 fps calculates to 141,750 gr/fps (whatever unit you wish to convert that to) in momentum , while a 230 gr 45 acp traveling at 750 fps calculates to 172,500 gr/fps in momentum.

So how on earth is it that the 9mm is even being brought up as comparable to 45 acp for "stopping power"? I'd have to think that 60% more frontal area (before any expansion, thinking that a similar load will expand similarly in each), plus 18% greater momentum, HAS to equal more damage to the target, hence more effective wounding.

I remember from years ago the matches I shot where a 45 guy would set up the pepper poppers. 9mm guys had to fire 2-3 rounds in the same areas to knock the poppers over, while the 45 guys needed one shot in the same area. How is this different than the damage inflicted on the bg?

See what I started?

Momentum is not really the thing to look at here. As you have noted, momentum = velocity * mass. But the real "killer" is ENERGY and that goes up with the square of the velocity. Recall from your high school physics that E = 0.5 * m * v^2. So using your figures:

1) 9mm 135 gr @ 1050 fps : 0.5 * 135 * (1050)^ = 74,418,750 gr-(ft/sec)^2
2) 45 ACP 230 gr @ 750 fps : 0.5 * 230 * (750)^2 = 64,687,500 gr-(ft/sec)^2

So the 9mm has something like 16% MORE ENERGY than the .45.

Again, however, there is no clear-cut proof that one round is all that much better than the other. Both have pros and cons.

 

[jwh20]

It's magic math. I just chuckled and ignored it.

Doesn't seem to be all that "magic". I'm assuming he's referring to the AREA of a .45 ACP round vs. a 9mm. Since the area of a circle is: A = pi * r^2 we have:

1) 9mm (.355" diameter or .1775 radius) : A = 3.14159 * .1775^2 = 0.0989 sq. in.
2) .45 (.452" diameter or .226 radius) : A = 3.14159 * .226^2 = 0.1605 sq. in.

So the .45/9mm ratio is 0.1606/0.0989 = 1.622. In other words the area of a .45 is 162% of the 9mm. Or as the OP said, it's 60% (actually 62%) larger.

Not funny or magic math. Not necessarily relevant though. A 5.56 round is MUCH smaller than a .45 but that doesn't imply that it's not deadly.

 

[Vanguard.45]

I know this has probably been rehashed more times than anyone can count, but I don't find this angle in the search, SO.....

Quick math comparisons between 9mm and 45 lead me to believe that:

1 - Frontal area of 45 ACP is 60% greater than 9mm.

2 - Velocity vs mass only goes so far: a 135 gr (+p?) 9mm loading traveling at 1050 fps calculates to 141,750 gr/fps (whatever unit you wish to convert that to) in momentum , while a 230 gr 45 acp traveling at 750 fps calculates to 172,500 gr/fps in momentum.

So how on earth is it that the 9mm is even being brought up as comparable to 45 acp for "stopping power"? I'd have to think that 60% more frontal area (before any expansion, thinking that a similar load will expand similarly in each), plus 18% greater momentum, HAS to equal more damage to the target, hence more effective wounding.

I remember from years ago the matches I shot where a 45 guy would set up the pepper poppers. 9mm guys had to fire 2-3 rounds in the same areas to knock the poppers over, while the 45 guys needed one shot in the same area. How is this different than the damage inflicted on the bg?

See what I started?

The reason people even "consider" the 9mm is because the difference in diameter between the two is only a tenth of an inch and both rounds will do the job if placed correctly using modern ammunition.

Simple, really. I like both 9mm and 45acp. Both are comfy to shoot and the guns I own to shoot them allow me to place shots accurately.

Both 9mm and 45acp have succeeded greatly and failed miserably in street shootings when it comes to one shot stops.

And the legend about the 45acp coming to the rescue in the Philippines against the Moros is 100% false. The one weapon the boots on the ground found to be significantly more potent than any handgun round they had was the 12ga sbotgun!

I would concur with their findings.

 

[Hoosierman]

I think another reason people go with 9mm is the temporary wound channel is greater. Most SD loads are up near the 1200 fps range, and that kind of speed creates a tearing force that just isn't there with a .45 going 750 fps.
9mm vs 45ACP PART 4: Speer Gold Dot - YouTube

This 9mm temporary (and secondary for that matter) wound channel is just unmatched by the 45. Both calibers are represented by top shelf commonly used SD ammo.

All that said, I like both calibers, but got rid of my 45 recently because of 2 reasons, low capacity and price of ammo. I wasn't practicing enough. I can practice 2x as much with a 9mm for the same $, so i'm a better shot with it, therefore making it the better choice in my hands.

 

[cosermann]

Because in real world shootings, not scratch paper and a calculator, there's little to no difference in results.

Yup.

See also ==>> http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

 

[BC9]

45 ACP may be more capable, but that does not mean that 9mm is incapable.

 

[Sigmachirev]

The only help you need in make a choice is what do you personal shoot better. For me its a 9mm. I am a very good shot with any hand gun but with I 9mm I can putt more shots down accurately quicker.

Both have the same stopping power if the bad guy is dead.

 

[cosermann]

See also ==>> http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

^^^ Just quoting to emphasize this doc. It will help dispel many of the myths propagated relative to "temporary wound cavity," "momentum," etc. when it comes to handgun wounding effectiveness.

Just a teaser, "... factors such as energy deposit, momentum transfer, size of temporary cavity or calculations such as the RII are irrelevant or erroneous." page 12.

Simply put, other than psychological stops, there's no way to get immediate incapacitation from a handgun bullet other than from a CNS shot.

The other physiological mechanism is going to be loss of blood pressure, and that isn't necessarily immediate. For example, destroying the heart (using either a 9mm or a .45) results in a perp that can, if he so chooses, continue to act for the next 10-15 seconds. The difference in time in the BP drop between 9mm and 45 acp in peripheral wounds is insignificant - because neither will guarantee a rapid end to the fight.

Either can do the job if you do your job.

 

[Birds Away]

I didn't know you were going to post technical diagrams. I surrender. You win the internet.

 

[hooky]

As long as we're posting technical diagrams...

 

[wesnellans]

I KNEW someone would go there!

As long as we're posting technical diagrams...

 

[Hogwylde]

What everyone fails to realize or understand is that it DOESN"T MATTER how much "stopping power" a bullet has. What matters is..........where does your bullet hit the target and does it deliver enough energy at the place where it hits to neutralize it. A person holding a stick of dynamite in his hand is likely to have his hand blown off, but won't necessarily die. A person holding that same stick of dynamite in his mouth is likely to have his head blown off, and WILL necessarily die.

Bullet placement is EVERYTHING, "stopping power" is just a measure of the bullets energy and means NOTHING if you miss the target or hit it in an ineffective place.

 

[wesnellans]

I've always figured the mythical "stopping power" (notice I used this term in quotes from the start of the thread?) phraseology was somebody's way of erroneously paraphrasing material they didn't understand.

However, the DAMAGE done by smaller or larger projectiles would necessarily be proportional to their sizes, all things being equal. Greater damage to the target HAS to equate to greater, and therefore more effective, wounding, does it not?

 

[Manatee]

What round would you utilize if the aggressor wore a ballistic vest and you were firing to center of mass?

 

[HoughMade]

I've always figured the mythical "stopping power" (notice I used this term in quotes from the start of the thread?) phraseology was somebody's way of erroneously paraphrasing material they didn't understand.

However, the DAMAGE done by smaller or larger projectiles would necessarily be proportional to their sizes, all things being equal. Greater damage to the target HAS to equate to greater, and therefore more effective, wounding, does it not?

The goal is stopping the assailant, not creating a very slightly larger wound. One does not equal the other. real world shootings do not bear out a significant difference in results.

 

[HoughMade]

What round would you utilize if the aggressor wore a ballistic vest and you were firing to center of mass?

.50 BMG, but if I needed something small and concealable, .338 Lapua Mag....I mean, I would know this going, right?