Carbine match?

[carbine.shooters]

Wow. Just wow.
That would have been so easy to send out in the form of an email, and would have saved me and my friend a TON of trouble.
Did you guys even get my emails?
I'm extremely frustrated by the poor communication. A simple email reply would have prevented the confusion.
I know the fudd-range rules are not your fault, but the poor communication is.
The first match was a blast and I cannot wait to shoot in another. Hope you guys are able to work out the communication bugs before the next match.

thanks


*** Edited to add ***
By the way. You can remove my match RSVP from your list. I know that I'm still welcome to shoot (previous shooter), but it would be a dick-move to leave my buddy at home after all this crap.

Your frustrated by our poor communication and we are frustrated by your attitude. Have you ever organized and executed a large scale match? I'm talking like 50-80 shooters? Do you understanding the multitude of issue involved? For example:

• Making sure you have a place to execute the match at. This means meeting with the board of directors (BOD) and explain what you are trying to do. Get them to accept the liability of people using their range and pumping high-velocity rounds into the berm under the clock when the competitive pressure kicks in. Screw up and someone sends a round threw Joe Blow's house that is a mile down range and club, along with you, get's sued. BTW this meeting often happens off hours and not during "business" hours.
• Planning the COF and ensuring the are safe to execute. You just can't throw up a bunch of targets an call it a day. You have to ensure that they are A) Challenging B) Fun C) Safe. For example do you realize most folks are more likely to trip over their sling transiting from prone to standing? How do we know this? Because we watched an individual do just that and his AK-47 did a nice 180 in the air before it landed on the ground pointed at me. Ergo no prone to standing stages.
• Making sure everything is prepared for match day. This mean having COF printed off that explain what is expected of the shooter. Having score sheets printed off so we can actually record a result. Having the right equipment on hand to ensure props can be assembled (makes no sense to have wall sections if you can't screw them together). Having pen's handy so you can both A) Register shooters B) Keep score. It may sound small, and it is, but without this type of stuff a match doesn't happen.
• Setup for match day. This means we are the first on the range and the last to leave. We take ownership of making sure everything is setup, ready for shooters, and then put away in it's correct place so we don't **** off any else who uses the club facilities. We are at the range by 7:30 and often leave at 3-4 o'clock without a single hour of it being paid. All your "match fee" money go's to the club so we they can fund improvements to the facilities.
• Ensuring adequate staff is on hand during match day. What? Did you think we are all being paid right? After match we are not going to a show club to "make it rain" or going to a gun store and buying a cool new toy. Yes, it is a volunteer sport and we do it because we enjoy shooting and enjoy competing. However, to ensure it is a SAFE sport we have to have at least a two, and ideally three, safety officers, on each squad. This ensure they are given breaks and they are alert to possible mistakes the shooter may make and in a position to stop them before they become FATEL mistakes. Honestly, when we RO's scoring is a distance second concern vs making sure the shooters doesn't do stupid that kills me, someone else on the squad, or themselves. This all has to be coordinated and arranged ahead of time.

Also, btw we also all have full time JOBS and FAMILES that need attention. Personally I have a 4 month in the house that controls my schedule. So given those fact, to be bluntly honest I could care less that the email you send on Wednesday at 8:50 PM wasn't resounded to until 2:00 PM on Friday. Your four emails got lost in the 40 other emails that we needed direct attention in order to ensure the match happens tomorrow. You could have just crossed the match off and said it was a no-go for you, but instead you come on INGO and make an issue out of it while both of us are working our butts off to make sure this get's done safe and enjoyable manner.

 

[Que]

How can someone who is interested in participating in one of these matches be considered next time?

 

[newdumdum9825]

I have to say as an outsider lookin in, after seeing this post, I would be completely turned away because of some of the comments that have been made.. Bash me all you want for downing your club but. Saying you could careless about someone showing interest isn't the way to go. And as I've said I now know to avoid whatever hfgc is if you gonna treat people like that

 

[Dtwentythree]

Carbine Shooter
I'm sorry that you're so upset. However, I feel like you're anger and condescending tone is misdirected. You're venting all your various frustrations out on me. I didnt cause any of those problems or do any of the things you're angry about.

I'm also sorry this whole endeavor is such a burden for you guys. I sincerely mean that. It's apparently gotten too large and difficult to run with just two people.

I think you guys ran a top notch shoot in April. I was super impressed by the communication, organization and execution. One of you guys (Mikes) went out of your way to email me a few extra times to ensure I'd know where to check, just in case of a weather cancellation. It was very much appreciated considering my long drive.

No. I have never personally ran a large scale match all myself. However, I've helped organize, run and RSO many many shooting events over the years. Everything from Appleseed shoots, to night rifle/pistol/shotgun matches to good old 3-gun matches. One thing is a constant. You need lots and lots of help to pull it off. People who are tasked with specific jobs to help take the burden off the core people. Jobs like communications.

And no. I have never received a single reply to any of my emails (not saying you didn't, I just never received). Nor the requested IM's through this site. I personally despise internet forums, but it was the only place to ask questions. I'm sorry I came here at all. I should have, as you suggested, just written off the match when I didn't get a reply.

You guys clearly need people to step up and help out with some of this small detail stuff. However, I won't bother volunteering. Your unusual hostility and personal animus towards me gives me pause to even attend future shoots, much less volunteer with communications (my day job). It's quite frankly alarming.

I compete in pistol, precision rifle, carbine and 3-gun matches quite regularly and thought you guys were awesome. I've talked you up elsewhere to both organizers and friends. I admit, I'm shocked at the tone this has taken. I hope it's all a big misunderstanding and that we can make nice.


By the time you see this, the shoot will be over and hopefully a success.

Thank you for all the hard work to pull off these shoots.

BTW
I find that a sincere mea culpa and apology works wonders when a customer is upset. It makes that customer want to do business with you again and is great PR to draw in other potential customers. The best part is that its free.

So, with that said, allow me to set a new tone.
I apologize for getting frustrated and calling you out on an internet forum.

 

[chizzle]

Yikes. I have been a Match Director for a big match, and it can be hard work. That being said, sometimes it is easier to answer questions than to write a big response, especially if you are really busy. It's also really hard sometimes not to take stuff personally when you pour your heart and soul into into something. After serving on the Board at MCFG for 5+ years, I learned the importance of hearing peoples' feedback about club policies, even if you don't particularly agree with it.

Overall, the tone seems weird to me. Kind of like saying "Hey guys! Party at My House!". "Just kidding, you're not really invited"...

 

[Barry in IN]

I feel for the match organizers. They are caught in the middle of being beat up by at least two sides.

They evidently had a struggle with the club board if they only got approval Tuesday night. I know they've had the match in the works for months, so it this sure wasn't because they just went to the board with it.

Then they have to let everybody know ASAP. And I mean ASAP. That late, a delay of a couple of hours could make a difference to some whether they can go or not.

And that's not quite right either. They can't "let everybody know" because the board isn't opening it up to "everybody".

Now what? They have people asking about it, posting about it, emailing about it, and they don't know if its even going to happen until literally hours before the match. Now they have to let people know right freakin' now, and are only supposed to invite certain people. Hurry up! Done yet?

This is on top of everything else to put on a rather unique match. Some of us have put on matches, but few with with this little going their way. Because of what courses of fire the board did and didn't approve, they have to alter/drop/replace some COFs. They may need to alter or build new props or find targets they weren't aware of needing yesterday. They need to know who is coming to know if they need only a couple of ROs or have to ask for help ROing. They need a board member to let them in, and can THEY be there at 7:30 a couple of days from now. They have a dozen little late things like this to do, and meanwhile people are beating them up because their RSVP didn't get a reply. So yeah, I can see why he might get a bit short.

Announcing the thing should be the easiest part, but they didn't even get the benefit of that. It sounds like nothing came easy for them.
I'm surprised and more than a little impressed they were able to hold it at all.

 

[carbine.shooters]

Scores have been sent out to those who competed.

We hope everyone had an enjoyable time and we thank everyone for coming out, being safe, and helping setup, paste, score, and clean up. We always say it, but this is a volunteer sport and without safe shooters and everyone's help these matches would not be possible - thanks again!

A few observations:
- M4s/AR-15s were the dominate carbine with exceptions of an AUG, SCAR, and AK.
- One WW2 category competitor with an M1 carbine; he held his own against the more modern guns. We would like to see more guns in this category.
- Almost all modern guns had a red-dot optic of some type.
- Some folks struggled with manipulations, reloads, malfunction clearances, etc. Generally, people are more comfortable with their pistols than carbines and we see this every match. Some of it is training (or lack of), but it is also partially due to few opportunities to run these guns in a manner for which there were designed. Thus, part of why we run these matches.
- 100 yd stage proved challenging for many folks. 100 yds, prone, partially exposed targets in shaded lighting conditions. Those with specialty, magnified optic guns did well. Those with red-dots struggled and no one really shot to the mechanical capabilities of their guns (6-8 inch groups with ARs were common). Target visibility was challenging, but hopefully folks identified an area they can improve in. Again, part of why we run these.

Unsure of the next match date or location. If it is at ACC, there will be an email and INGO posting. If at HCFG, just a private email list. Possible ACC later this year in Nov/Dec based on weather/scheduling. If not, it will be next spring.

Regarding the controversy of the match announcement and the heated messages back-and-forth, we hope to put this past us and move on. At this point, arguing back-and-forth or holding bad blood toward a match, club, competitor does no one any favors. We all operate in an imperfect environment and not everything is a clear or easy as we'd like it to be. Different clubs have different rules and we do our best to respect their policies. Communication is key and it is clear it can be improved; just pls understand there are lots of moving parts most folks don't realize. We do our best to accommodate shooters desires and questions while balancing club match requirements all while putting together a match people want to attend and come back too. No one likes to get flamed on-line (shooters/competitors, match directors, or clubs) and once it starts, no one really "wins". If folks still want to debate items, send your comments to our email carbine.shooters@yahoo.com

At the end of the day, we're all on the same side - gun guys/girls exercising our 2nd Amendment Rights.

Thanks,
Mike W

 

[Dtwentythree]

Glad the match went well. Sorry to have missed it.

Thanks again Mike

 

[Tanfodude]

Looking forward to the next match.

 

[warren5421]

3 of us went to 1 match, last of the year. Next year Hamilton County Fish & Game - Welcome! changed their club rules and we could not go. Their club and their rules. We will never suport that club with our money now. carbine.shooter you had a good match.

 

[rhino]

I thought I'd seen pretty much everything that shooters, match directors, and clubs could do to p***-off each other. This is a new one! Yea!