Very good discussion here. The representatives of this facility are very good to us and are glad to have us there. I'm on the elder board, and the pastor knows I carry on a regular basis. This is Sunday morning only use for our group, with no school-related activities taking place. It's been my understanding I am legal.
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Carry in Church that has "School"
- Thread starter BE Mike
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It doesnt matter how well intentioned you are, or how YOU interpret the law. A church operating in a school is a big no-go for carry; The GFZ stands per IC 35-47. Its my understanding that there can be some wiggle room in a CHURCH OWNED building that has a school as part of its ministry. I believe that the pastor may grant permission. (I would get it in writing to be safe)
I recommend you and your church seek the advice of an attorney or the local prosecutor before you carry there again. IANAL but I dont believe your fellow elders nor your pastor are legally capable of granting permission since the property is owned by the school. I think the school board MIGHT be able to grant that permission. But once again, check with a professional.
You should probably heed the VERY good advice in this thread, Peter McM. You are most definitely carrying illegally while you're on the SCHOOL property - whether or not you have the blessing of your church leadership.
In THIS instance, the "OK" from the church doesn't mean bupkis because they do not OWN the facilities. The school system does. And your real/official permission would have to come from that school district's school board.
A school is NEVER NOT A SCHOOL. It's a school no matter what day of the week, month, or year. No matter if school's in session or out of session. Doesn't matter if it's 3:00pm or 3:00am. A school is a school is a school. You, sir, are tempting fate. Can you afford a (losing) legal defense? Can you afford a felony conviction? Those are the waters you're treading in via your ignorance of the law - and not believing the Code that's been posted here.
I think you are correct. It would be a good idea to check with the pastor and determine for certain if they are licensed as a school by any entity (fed., state, local school district) and also whether or not they receive any public funding.
As for the fellow who attends services in an old public school, being that it was funded by taxpayer dollars and hasn't been sold to a church, that would be a situation where I wouldn't want to push the issue.
Okay, then. Good advice, all--thanks. I'll err on the side of caution, here. Until I get a difinitive answer, I'll suspend the practice. I'm just used to carrying to church; the place many of us recently left had a school attached, and I had the blessing from the head of security there. I hope we don't end up in the unlikely situation involving a bad guy who doesn't care about such things as the law. I'd sure like to know there's protection for our small flock besides 911.
It seems someone would use similar line of reasoning to argue against holding worship services on school grounds, citing sep of church/state and the like, but obviously it's widely done.
It seems someone would use similar line of reasoning to argue against holding worship services on school grounds, citing sep of church/state and the like, but obviously it's widely done.
Again - you HAVE a definitive answer.
You cannot legally have your firearm on you while on school property in this state unless you have permission from the school district. Period and end of story.
The consequences are debatable, I'll give you that. For it all depends on the local LEO and Prosecutor. If you cross a gung-ho cop and prosecutor, you WILL be up a creek without a paddle. Try and not be up a creek without a paddle, please.
eldirector
Grandmaster
Handy resource:
https://secure.in.gov/apps/fssa/carefinder/index.html
Search for child-care providers across the state. If they are licensed, they appear here. It also lists MANY (but not all) daycare ministries. Not all, because they are simply not required to tell the State much of anything.
My church also runs a "daycare and pre-school". At least, that is how they advertise it. It is an unlicensed daycare ministry. As such, it is NOT a school by the State's definition.
My daughter will be attending Bethesda next year. Their entire property (multiple parcels) is a school, thanks to the on-premise k12 private school. The Church, sports areas, parking lots, and even empty fields, are all GFZ's.
The part of the IC that has always given me pause is part D iii - "A developmental child care program for preschool children."I cannot find a definition for that ANYWHERE.
https://secure.in.gov/apps/fssa/carefinder/index.html
Search for child-care providers across the state. If they are licensed, they appear here. It also lists MANY (but not all) daycare ministries. Not all, because they are simply not required to tell the State much of anything.
My church also runs a "daycare and pre-school". At least, that is how they advertise it. It is an unlicensed daycare ministry. As such, it is NOT a school by the State's definition.
My daughter will be attending Bethesda next year. Their entire property (multiple parcels) is a school, thanks to the on-premise k12 private school. The Church, sports areas, parking lots, and even empty fields, are all GFZ's.
The part of the IC that has always given me pause is part D iii - "A developmental child care program for preschool children."I cannot find a definition for that ANYWHERE.
Okay, then. Good advice, all--thanks. I'll err on the side of caution, here. Until I get a difinitive answer, I'll suspend the practice. I'm just used to carrying to church; the place many of us recently left had a school attached, and I had the blessing from the head of security there. I hope we don't end up in the unlikely situation involving a bad guy who doesn't care about such things as the law. I'd sure like to know there's protection for our small flock besides 911.
It seems someone would use similar line of reasoning to argue against holding worship services on school grounds, citing sep of church/state and the like, but obviously it's widely done.
It seems someone would use similar line of reasoning to argue against holding worship services on school grounds, citing sep of church/state and the like, but obviously it's widely done.
Just wanted to toss this out there for future church carry seekers to clarify. Maybe we need a sticky for this info so the rules arent so murky to those of us in the trenches? IANAL so if my interpretation of the laws below are incorrect, Please correct me.
Carry at a church renting from a school is a legal GFZ, and a church with a licensed school on property is also a legally binding GFZ, both covered under IC 35-41-1-24.7.
However you can get permission to carry under IC 35-47-9-1 by whoever OWNS THE PROPERTY . If its a church in a school owned building, its the school board. If its a Church with a school, its the church board or pastor, whomever controls the property. Written permission is best practice to prove your legality in the unfortunate case of "he said-she said" in case somebody forgets you got said permission. (or a change of heart happens, etc)
Carry at a church renting from a school is a legal GFZ, and a church with a licensed school on property is also a legally binding GFZ, both covered under IC 35-41-1-24.7.
However you can get permission to carry under IC 35-47-9-1 by whoever OWNS THE PROPERTY . If its a church in a school owned building, its the school board. If its a Church with a school, its the church board or pastor, whomever controls the property. Written permission is best practice to prove your legality in the unfortunate case of "he said-she said" in case somebody forgets you got said permission. (or a change of heart happens, etc)
See Post 32 for the updated text.
Last edited:
eldirector
Grandmaster
CORRECTION
IC 35-47-9-1 HAS CHANGED. The text above is not correct.
And also, the definition of a School Board:
IC 35-47-9-1 HAS CHANGED. The text above is not correct.
And also, the definition of a School Board:
Thanks Eldirector! Rep inbound!
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
If the school has no separate entity status then wouldn't that make the church to be the same as the school and therefore the church itself is a school? Your justification for being able to carry on the property is that " the school is only on church property" but if they are the same entity then one can't be on the other's property, they are all one, and therefore church = school property.
I'm not sure that it would make every property a school because not every property is adjacent to the school; unless by my previous reasoning the church and the school are all one entity. Are there any examples of how this sort of thing is handled with public schools? Is a separate building (IE, building for Admin purposes only) treated as if it is also a school even if it isn't adjacent to the school?Besides, even if you're right, I think there's a better-than-average chance that application to my situation would be a bit absurd. The deeded owner of the property is the Roman Catholic Diocese of Lafayette. That would make ever diocesan property a "school."
Tough question; the law is definitely vague.
I don't necessarily agree with your interpretation of how a Catholic school sitting on grounds of a Catholic church would not also make the church a GFZ unless the school was indeed a 100% legally separate entity (church could still be a financial supporter of the school, but they would be 100% separate entities).
For the TL;DR crowd, skip to the bottom.
That, my friend, as far as I can tell, is not resolved in any meaningful way.
That's really the wrinkle that someone might rely on to carry in a Catholic church that also has a "school." The "school" is not a separate legal entity. At all. It isn't "licensed" under the regulations referenced in the criminal statute, although it is "accredited" and "registered." Legally, there does not appear to be any reference to a "school" located there.
Instead, it is a church that has a building on its property used to teach kids K-8. I guess that's the best distinction I can make, or at least, the only way the regulatory scheme makes sense. A "school" is a term that has a specific legal meaning. But, it doesn't mean that every place that teaches kids is a legal "school."
Taken to an extreme, my logic might even say that since it isn't a "legal" school, someone might be able to carry on the "school" property.
I look at it more from a potential juror's perspective. I think at least 1/12 of a jury would make the common-sense distinction between church part of the property and the "school" part. Particularly since they are totally separate buildings.
There is an additional reason why someone might be willing to take the risk, and maybe this isn't the right thread to mention it, but here it is: IMHO, a parochial school would be a very tantalizing soft target. True, the chances of anything going down are probably small, but it is non-zero.
That, my friend, as far as I can tell, is not resolved in any meaningful way.
I will grant that is a risk.
Part of the issue in my situation is that there is only one entity, and it is not a school. The legal owner is non-profit (an archdiocese) that owns a HUGE number of parcels throughout central Indiana. Not all of them have schools. In fact, I suspect only a small fraction have schools on the property.
To me, that's different because the admin building is still located on property owned by the school corporation.
That's really the wrinkle that someone might rely on to carry in a Catholic church that also has a "school." The "school" is not a separate legal entity. At all. It isn't "licensed" under the regulations referenced in the criminal statute, although it is "accredited" and "registered." Legally, there does not appear to be any reference to a "school" located there.
Instead, it is a church that has a building on its property used to teach kids K-8. I guess that's the best distinction I can make, or at least, the only way the regulatory scheme makes sense. A "school" is a term that has a specific legal meaning. But, it doesn't mean that every place that teaches kids is a legal "school."
Taken to an extreme, my logic might even say that since it isn't a "legal" school, someone might be able to carry on the "school" property.
I look at it more from a potential juror's perspective. I think at least 1/12 of a jury would make the common-sense distinction between church part of the property and the "school" part. Particularly since they are totally separate buildings.
There is an additional reason why someone might be willing to take the risk, and maybe this isn't the right thread to mention it, but here it is: IMHO, a parochial school would be a very tantalizing soft target. True, the chances of anything going down are probably small, but it is non-zero.
It looks like that is the accepted opinion regarding unlicensed church ministries with no public funding.
