Carrying in Church with a daycare

[Paul30]

After reading about the recent church shooting lately, it made me wonder about carrying in a church in IN that has a day care. Some states do not allow carry in churches, some churches have day cares. I wish there was a way to find out if it were a legal day care or a room someone built to allow someone to simply watch the kids during service. Even then, in Indiana would the room itself be the daycare or the entire building and property? I like to carry where I can, but don't want to do jail time and lose my RKBA either.

The recent church shooting answers the common comment by the hoplophobic of "why would anyone NEED to be able to carry a gun in a church", again.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150618/PC16/150619404

 

[Leo]

When I was a Pastor at a church in Texas, they had the same laws about daycare in the buildings. The way around it was the Pastor/Board could maintain a security team. All members who I trusted could be part of the security team. A list was keep in a file cabinet. If course being Texas, the security team list was a good portion of the membership. After the Pastor and assistant Pastor at Hilltop church just west of us was shot, my sound booth guy, who was also an animal control officer, kept a 30/30 with him in the crows nest. A real shepherd understands the concept of sheepdogs.

 

[squidvt]

If the Church has a Daycare then it's a bad idea to carry there.

 

[actaeon277]

If the Church has a Daycare then it's a bad idea to carry there.

I think the recent shooting proves otherwise.

 

[T.Lex]

Extensive discussion here:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...f-defense/380703-carry-church-has-school.html

Main answer: it depends.

 

[Paul30]

If the Church has a Daycare then it's a bad idea to carry there.

I'm ok with it being a bad idea, just want to know if it's legal. I'm reading into the comment that it really isn't legally clear and that you really will not know until it goes to court. I read the long thread in the link, and it is also hard to follow for me. Much of the thread was about a open carry in a church property owned by a school. I have read where you can't carry into a post office, but if you are in a Mall that has a post office does the fact that a post office is on the 2 acre lot prohibit you, the fact it is in the multi thousand square foot building, or is it ONLY prohibiting you from walking into the actual area walled in as the post office.

I'm just wanting to carry anywhere it's legal for my protection and my family without breaking the law, yet the law seems written so vague that many can't interpret it clearly. The recent shooting at a church just brings the topic up again, if someone had been carrying and shot the guy how much trouble would they be in if it were in our state? No extenuating circumstances of the church being rented from a school on school property. If the church owns the building and the dirt it sits on but has a small room they hammered together to watch the kids is it legal to carry there? I see it also was brought up that even if they aren't licensed, if they "should be licensed" then you are still in violation. One comment was a neighbor home schools or runs a daycare out of their home but isn't legally licensed and you go over for a bbq, poof, you now committed a felony. I wish it were either written more clear, or there was a requirement for any prohibited area to be listed on a web site where one could officially verify if they are breaking a law or not, but I'm sure that will never happen because it would make too much sense.

 

[squidvt]

That is what I was saying. It's not legal to carry in a School or daycare. It is not even legal to carry in the same building as a daycare. That is why you can't carry at the Indianapolis Childrens Museum. I'm on my tablet right now or I would look up the IC for you. I'm sure that if you google the IC and look at handgunlaw.us they will have the IC for you.

 

[T.Lex]

It's not legal to carry in a School or daycare. It is not even legal to carry in the same building as a daycare.

It is not that simple, but if you want to use that bright line rule to guide your carrying, that rationale reflects an abundance of caution. More info in that other thread.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I'd love to see "our side" use this tragedy to educate people on the dangers of Gun Free Zones...and then use it as a catalyst to start rolling them back.

 

[jblomenberg16]

Paul-

One of the best things to do is check with your church. Of course knowing the state and local laws is important, but there are ways to remain in compliance with the law and also protect yourself in an area that has increasingly become a target given the expectation that folks on the property may be soft targets.

 

[ATM]

That is what I was saying. It's not legal to carry in a School or daycare. It is not even legal to carry in the same building as a daycare. That is why you can't carry at the Indianapolis Childrens Museum. I'm on my tablet right now or I would look up the IC for you. I'm sure that if you google the IC and look at handgunlaw.us they will have the IC for you.

You will find that the IC not only defines the prohibition but provides exceptions which may be met as well

I legally carry in my church which has a preschool because the board has authorized me to do so.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Paul-

One of the best things to do is check with your church. Of course knowing the state and local laws is important, but there are ways to remain in compliance with the law and also protect yourself in an area that has increasingly become a target given the expectation that folks on the property may be soft targets.

This. There are ways around the ban sometimes even if there is a licensed daycare on premises. In some instances I think the board or pastor (whomever controls the church building) can provide written permission allowing it, and I think they can also designate you as security to bypass that. IANAL, so do your own research.

I think the code you are looking for is IC 35-41-1-24.7.

 

[eldirector]

As others have mentioned, find out if this is an actual licensed daycare, or a day care ministry (which is exempt from licensing). If the latter, then it is not a School by Indiana Code. My church operates a day care ministry.

Even if it is a School by IC, authorization can still be given.

Events like the one mentioned in the OP reinforce my decisions.

 

[foszoe]

You will find that the IC not only defines the prohibition but provides exceptions which may be met as well

I legally carry in my church which has a preschool because the board has authorized me to do so.

This is what lawyers have told me also. We don't have one at our church, but I am thinking of getting authorization from the parish council as a preemptive strike!

 

[CalebToNowhere]

When I was a Pastor at a church in Texas, they had the same laws about daycare in the buildings. The way around it was the Pastor/Board could maintain a security team. All members who I trusted could be part of the security team. A list was keep in a file cabinet. If course being Texas, the security team list was a good portion of the membership. After the Pastor and assistant Pastor at Hilltop church just west of us was shot, my sound booth guy, who was also an animal control officer, kept a 30/30 with him in the crows nest. A real shepherd understands the concept of sheepdogs.

Our church has a care service for the children while church functions are happening, be that regular service, VBS or youth group. The board approved a security team some five years ago. We have 14 members who rotate specific duties. All NRA certified in some courses with annual qualifications on the pistol used for service. And to build comradery we get together occasionally for USPSA shoots, safety training and what not. Some members are former law enforcement and military. Some are average Joe's that just want to serve.

 

[jbmayes2000]

The recent church shooting answers the common comment by the hoplophobic of "why would anyone NEED to be able to carry a gun in a church", again.

Church shooting suspect Dylann Roof returned to a city in mourning - Post and Courier

And that would be me. I think a month or two ago I debated whether it was appropriate or not after a man had his gun in his pocket go off accidentally (due to negligence). I argued that your chance of being randomly shot up in a church was very very very little.

At this point I still don't carry my gun everyday but I will stand corrected on those choosing to take it anywhere. Just be safe with it please.

 

[SteveM4A1]

And that would be me. I think a month or two ago I debated whether it was appropriate or not after a man had his gun in his pocket go off accidentally (due to negligence). I argued that your chance of being randomly shot up in a church was very very very little.

At this point I still don't carry my gun everyday but I will stand corrected on those choosing to take it anywhere. Just be safe with it please.

We'll slowly get you to see the light

 

[Tactically Fat]

but I am thinking of getting authorization from the parish council as a preemptive strike!

I'm going to presume Catholic?

Good luck...

 

[dwh79]

Fortunately my parish is one of the few that does not have a school. I believe though that a case was discussed in the news awhile back where a man was reported with a gun at St. Michaels church in greenfield. It does have a school but it was not connected to the church and it was not during school hours. If I recall correctly the news reported that it was not illegal in that situation which I found odd. I will have to search for the story.

 

[dwh79]

[h=3]Greenfield man denies bringing gun to church[/h]

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Updated: Aug 30, 2013 4:02 PM CDT
GREENFIELD, Ind. -Greenfield Police now know the identity of a suspicious man who walked into a church and snapped a picture, all while reportedly carrying a gun. It prompted a school lockdown earlier this week.
After seeing our story on social media, the man turned himself in on Facebook but denies being armed.
"If it was something innocent, come forward and say, 'I was just there, I took a picture for some other reason.' It's the unknown that's scary," said a concerned parent in a story Eyewitness News reported on Monday.
Twenty-four hours later, Deanna Wesley's words prompted a Facebook posting from a man with a surprising twist.
"Ok people...It was me..but no gun only a phone and my coffee," he wrote.
His name is John Lagle. He says he's the man who walked into St. Michael's Catholic Church during Sunday communion, stood in the entry of the sanctuary, snapped a picture, and then walked out. According to witnesses he put a gun in his pocket.
The reported incident so unnerved school officials an alert was sent to parents and St. Michael was put on lockdown Monday.
But Lagle denies he was armed.
A viewer who saw his post on Facebook and alerted Greenfield Police.
"He said that he wanted to turn his life around. He didn't mean any harm to anybody," said Major Derek Towle with Greenfield Police.
Lagle declined an on camera interview, but told me in another Facebook post:
"I was just visiting a friend across the street ..wanted to [hear] the message and was just standing in the door way ..drinking my coffee..not Catholic so I was not comfortable with entering the sanctuary ..admired the cross and took a pic..the usher was two feet from me," Lagle said sharing his recollection of events.
The big question: was he carrying a gun?
"Absolutely not. Coffee and a phone. Never owned a handgun," he wrote.
Even though anyone with a permit can carry a gun into a church, it's an important distinction for Lagle, who was released from the Indiana Department of Correction ten days prior on a 2012 conviction for theft and receiving stolen property.
He also has three burglary convictions between 2007 and 2008.
Possessing a gun would violate his parole.
"He didn't break any laws by going into the church. We have no reason to disbelieve what he was saying," said Major Towle.
Lagle says he never meant to cause any problems and police believe his story.
St. Michael's School was out for holiday weekend today. Parents tell us they believe the school acted in the best interest of its students.
Neighbors and parents say the church should and does welcome those trying to find their way, but believe there are less suspicious ways to go about it.